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Antiretroviral Trial

heapsreal

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One of the first meds i tried was sertraline/zoloft, these drugs i was told would take a few weeks before they would work. I took half a zoloft(25mg) and within 2 hours my brain fog lifted, wow and i could think clearly and everything looked brighted, it was strange. It did worsen my insomnia initially but got use to it. this drug kept me going the first couple of years with cfs, but eventually stopped working for me and just worsened my insomnia. But it was strange and something i wont forget the way it worked the first time i took it, i thought i had found a cure for my cfs, but no luck.

cheers!!!!
Hi Jenny and all,

In the past I met on the internet one man who had ME/CFS for several years and he recovered completely by taking sertraline. He didn't suffer from depressive disorder. He tried various antidepressants out of desperation, some of them also from the SSRI family but he only felt worse. And then he came accross sertraline and after about a year he reported complete recovery, return to work and sport.

I believe a subset of patients with ME/CFS can substantially benefit from some antidepressants because of the cytokine connection. But some of them may be harmful. I tried these antidepressants: Clomipramine, Amitriptyline, Fluoxetine, Citalopram, Paroxetine, Sertraline, Escitalopram, Trazodone, Mirtazapine, Bupropion, Tianeptine, Venlafaxine, Milnacipran, Selegiline. Now I am taking again a small dose of escitalopram. I have never suffered from depressive disorder.

It is strange that although my illness subjectively feels like viral or bacterial encephalopathy antidepressants help me.
 

L'engle

moogle
Messages
3,231
Location
Canada
Hi Daffodil,

We're all here for you and grateful that you're sharing your experience with the AVs, positive and negative. Just imagine we are all there with you and on your side, if that helps at all.
 

Daffodil

Senior Member
Messages
5,875
thanks guys. a lot. today is particularly horrendous. energy...i heard from someone who asked a researcher about indinavir but they said not to take it. i wonder why
 

FancyMyBlood

Senior Member
Messages
189
Alesh and jenbooks - my second post in the thread I mentioned earlier describes how two people recovered with sertraline.

http://www.forums.aboutmecfs.org/showthread.php?7070-Treating-cytokine-up-down-regulation

Jenny

With all respect for those people, but I think it's quite peculiar that ADs recover (true) ME/CFS. It's possible ADs reduce a comorbid depression but they don't have anti-retroviral actions.
Maybe they just had an atipycal depression and were misdiagnosed as ME/CFS sufferers (like most people diagnosed by CDC criteria). Personally the psych lobby prescribed several ADs to me and they did exactly nothing.
 

boomer

Senior Member
Messages
143
Several years ago I recall reading about a study done on antidepressants and an immune system measure (can't remember which it was) but I was surprised to see that the study said it seemed that the antidepressant had some mild improvement in this marker. It would be interesting to know if people with experience ever notice that they developed infections or immune changes when they went off antidepressants. Of course antidepressants should not be taken if not needed.
 

FancyMyBlood

Senior Member
Messages
189
Several years ago I recall reading about a study done on antidepressants and an immune system measure (can't remember which it was) but I was surprised to see that the study said it seemed that the antidepressant had some mild improvement in this marker. It would be interesting to know if people with experience ever notice that they developed infections or immune changes when they went off antidepressants. Of course antidepressants should not be taken if not needed.

If anything ADs are immunosuppresive rather than immunostimulating.
 

heapsreal

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i think nancy klimas said something about ad's having immune modulating effects, maybe there stimulating qualities have a carry over effect to our lymphocytes etc
 

FancyMyBlood

Senior Member
Messages
189
i think nancy klimas said something about ad's having immune modulating effects, maybe there stimulating qualities have a carry over effect to our lymphocytes etc

Eur Neuropsychopharmacol. 2006 Oct;16(7):481-90. Epub 2006 Jan 4.
Antidepressants suppress production of the Th1 cytokine interferon-gamma, independent of monoamine transporter blockade.
Diamond M, Kelly JP, Connor TJ.
Department of Pharmacology, National University of Ireland, Galway, Ireland.
Abstract
In this study, antidepressants with selectivity for the noradrenaline transporter (reboxetine and desipramine), or the serotonin transporter (fluoxetine and clomipramine) were examined in terms of their ability to promote an anti-inflammatory cytokine phenotype in human blood. In addition, we examined the ability of trimipramine; a tricyclic antidepressant that is devoid of monoamine reuptake inhibitory properties on cytokine production. Lipopolysaccharide (LPS) was used to stimulate monocyte-derived pro-inflammatory (IL-1beta, TNF-alpha, IL-12) and anti-inflammatory (IL-10) cytokines, whilst concanavalin A (Con A) was used to stimulate T-cell (Th(1): IFN-gamma and Th(2/3): IL-10) cytokines. All of the antidepressants suppressed IFN-gamma production in the 10-50 microM concentration range, irrespective of their preference for serotonin or noradrenaline transporters. This suppression of IFN-gamma production was paralleled by reduced T-cell proliferation, therefore we suggest that the ability of antidepressants to suppress IFN-gamma production may be related to their anti-proliferative properties. The fact that trimipramine also suppressed IFN-gamma production and T-cell proliferation indicates that these immunomodulatory actions of antidepressants are most likely unrelated to inhibition of monoamine reuptake. Interestingly, exposure to a lower concentration (1 microM) of the antidepressants tended to increase T-cell-derived IL-10 production, with significant effects elicited by the noradrenaline reuptake inhibitors reboxetine and desipramine. In contrast to the robust actions of antidepressants on T-cell derived cytokine production, they failed to induce any consistent change in LPS-induced monocyte cytokine production. Overall, our results indicate that IFN-gamma producing T-cells (Th(1) cells) are the major target for the immunomodulatory actions of antidepressants, and provide evidence questioning the relationship between the monoaminergic reuptake properties of antidepressants and their immunomodulatory effects. The potential clinical significance of the anti-inflammatory actions of antidepressants is discussed.
PMID: 16388933


J Clin Psychopharmacol. 2001 Apr;21(2):199-206.
Anti-Inflammatory effects of antidepressants through suppression of the interferon-gamma/interleukin-10 production ratio.
Kubera M, Lin AH, Kenis G, Bosmans E, van Bockstaele D, Maes M.
Clinical Research Center for Mental Health, Antwerp, Belgium.
Abstract
There is some evidence that major depression--in particular, treatment-resistant depression (TRD)--is accompanied by activation of the inflammatory response system and that proinflammatory cytokines may play a role in the etiology of depression. This study was carried out to examine the effects of antidepressive agents, i.e., imipramine, venlafaxine, L-5-hydroxytryptophan, and fluoxetine on the production of interferon-gamma (IFN-gamma), a proinflammatory cytokine, and interleukin-10 (IL-10), a negative immunoregulatory cytokine. Diluted whole blood of fluoxetine-treated patients with TRD (mean age, 50.6+/-3.9 years) and age-matched healthy controls (mean age, 51.6+/-1.7 years) and younger healthy volunteers (mean age, 35.4+/-9.6 years) was stimulated with phytohemagglutinin (1 microg/mL) and lipopolysaccharide (5 microg/mL) for 48 hours with and without incubation with the antidepressants at 10-6 M and 10(-5) M. IFN-gamma and IL-10 were quantified by means of enzyme-linked immunoassays. The ratio of IFN-gamma to IL-10 production by immunocytes was computed because this ratio is of critical importance in determining the capacity of immunocytes to activate or inhibit monocytic and T-lymphocytic functions. All four antidepressive drugs significantly increased the production of IL-10. Fluoxetine significantly decreased the production of IFN-gamma. All four antidepressants significantly reduced the IFN-gamma/IL-10 ratio. There were no significant differences in the antidepressant-induced changes in IFN-gamma or IL-10 between younger and older healthy volunteers and TRD patients. Tricyclic antidepressants, selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors, and serotonin-noradrenaline reuptake inhibitors, as well as the immediate precursor of serotonin, have a common, negative immunoregulatory effect by suppressing the IFN-gamma/IL-10 production ratio. It is suggested that the therapeutic efficacy of antidepressants may be related to their negative immunoregulatory effects.
PMID: 11270917


Hum Psychopharmacol. 2001 Jan;16(1):95-103.
The immunoregulatory effects of antidepressants.
Maes M.
Clinical Research Centre for Mental Health, Antwerp, Belgium.
Abstract
There is some evidence that major depression is accompanied by activation of the inflammatory-response system (IRS). It has been hypothesized that increased production of proinflammatory cytokines may play a role in the etiology of major depression. If increased production of proinflammatory cytokines is at all involved in the etiology of depression, one would expect antidepressive treatments to have negative immunoregulatory effects. This paper reviews the effects of antidepressants, such as tricyclic antidepressants (TCAs), selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors (SSRIs), heterocyclic antidepressants (HCAs), serotonin-noradrenaline reuptake inhibitors (SNRIs), lithium, l-5-hydroxytroptophan (L-5-HTP), reversible inhibitors of MAO-A (RIMA) on the production of proinflammatory cytokines, e.g. interferon-gamma (IFNgamma), and negative immunoregulatory cytokines and agents, e.g. interleukin-10 (IL-10). In depressed patients, prolonged treatment with antidepressants and mood stabilizers normalizes signs of activation of the IRS, such as increased serum IL-6 and acute phase protein concentrations. In vitro, it has been shown that various types of antidepressive drugs, including TCAs (imipramine; clomipramine); SSRIs (citalopram, fluoxetine, sertraline); lithium; SNRIs (venlafaxine); HCAs (trazodone); RIMAs (moclobemide) and L-5-HTP significantly suppress the ratio of IFNgamma/IL-10 production by peripheral blood immunocytes. These antidepressant drugs appear to have a common effect on the IRS, i.e. in vitro they increase the production of IL-10 by peripheral blood leukocytes. Thus, the results suggest that antidepressants have negative immunoregulatory effects. It may be speculated that antidepressants exert some of their antidepressant effects through their negative immunoregulatory capacities. Copyright 2001 John Wiley & Sons, Ltd.

CFS patients based on CDC criteria seem to improve on ADs. But as we all know many are misdiagnosed and actually have atypical depression. Doesn't seem to strange they actually improve on ADs.

Hum Psychopharmacol. 2006 Dec;21(8):503-9.
An investigation of the long-term benefits of antidepressant medication in the recovery of patients with chronic fatigue syndrome.

Thomas MA, Smith AP.

Centre for Occupational and Health Psychology, School of Psychology, Cardiff University, UK. thomasma@cf.ac.uk
Abstract

Two hundred and seventy-five patients fulfilling the Centre for Disease Control (CDC) criteria for Chronic Fatigue Syndrome (CFS) completed measures assessing illness history, global ratings of well being, sleep, activity and psychopathology at baseline, 6 months, 18 months and 3 year follow-up. Forty-nine of these patients had been prescribed antidepressant medication, namely Tricyclic drugs or Selective Serotonin Re-uptake Inhibitors (SSRI). Data from the current study suggests that patients in the antidepressant medication group recover at a faster rate over time when compared to the untreated patient sample. In addition, the positive effects of antidepressant therapy are maintained at the 3-year follow-up point. It appears from these data that the SSRI in particular are responsible for improvements in the condition. Most importantly, these improvements include a reduction in the levels of fatigue recorded by patients. These findings have not been demonstrated in previous studies of the effect of antidepressant therapy for patients with this illness and this may reflect the short time periods studied in the earlier research.

PMID: 16981220 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

This is just a selection from the medical literature, there may be more to it that can alter my conclusion, but for now I think ADs are immunosuppresive.
 

Jenny

Senior Member
Messages
1,388
Location
Dorset
Someone needs to do a meta-analysis of the effects of different anti-depressants on the immune system. It seems to me that different anti-depressants have different effects on different cytokines. And it may be more useful to study these effects (ie the specific ways in which they may modulate the immune system) rather than whether they are generally immunosuppressive or immunostimulating.

There are studies in Pubmed that show that some can affect the cytokines that have been found to be dysregulated in ME, for example:

Sertraline lowered HDRS, and IL-12 and increased IL-4 and TgF-B1.

And others inhibited TNF alpha and IL -1b.

Jenny
 
Messages
28
Location
Sweden
Whenever I have done something stupid, like trying out a new supplement in a dose to high and crashes, the way out of this has been st Johns wort. Sometimes i have taken it for months to get in order. This is natures own AD and with very few sideeffects. I ve heard that St Johns wort also have antiretroviral properties. HIV researchers has done some studies on it i recall. This area is interesting since I suspect that a lot of people that are depressed in fact suffers from ME. And the fact that some actually heal is another interesting fact. Personally Ive tried remeron and Paxin (Paroxetin in sweden). None of them was a big helper at the time, especially Paxin had very unpleasant sideeffects.
 

Daffodil

Senior Member
Messages
5,875
condition seems to be worsening. night sweats, worse swelling feeling in head accompanied by a sucking feeling in forehead (assume this is lack of blood flow there), more chest pain and feeling of malaise. can be out of bed for only few minutes. labored breathing.

doc is out of office for 2 weeks. thinking of stopping AZT or RAL bit not sure which one to stop.

sue
 

leaves

Senior Member
Messages
1,193
dear Sue
Thinking of you. Please do not make a decision before contacting a doc. Take good care of yourself; drink enough, meditate, love yourself.
 

FancyMyBlood

Senior Member
Messages
189
Someone needs to do a meta-analysis of the effects of different anti-depressants on the immune system. It seems to me that different anti-depressants have different effects on different cytokines. And it may be more useful to study these effects (ie the specific ways in which they may modulate the immune system) rather than whether they are generally immunosuppressive or immunostimulating.

There are studies in Pubmed that show that some can affect the cytokines that have been found to be dysregulated in ME, for example:

Sertraline lowered HDRS, and IL-12 and increased IL-4 and TgF-B1.

And others inhibited TNF alpha and IL -1b.

Jenny

Agreed. It indeed seems different ADs have different effects on the immune system.
I haven't touched this subject too deeply, but it also seems ADs can have effects that change over time (ie starting period vs. 6 week+ use).
 

Alesh

Senior Member
Messages
191
Location
Czech Republic, EU
One of the first meds i tried was sertraline/zoloft, these drugs i was told would take a few weeks before they would work. I took half a zoloft(25mg) and within 2 hours my brain fog lifted, wow and i could think clearly and everything looked brighted, it was strange. It did worsen my insomnia initially but got use to it. this drug kept me going the first couple of years with cfs, but eventually stopped working for me and just worsened my insomnia. But it was strange and something i wont forget the way it worked the first time i took it, i thought i had found a cure for my cfs, but no luck.

cheers!!!!

Hi heapsreal,

it's interesting that I have nearly the same experience. In the second half of July in 2003 I started to take my first antidepressant, it was 20mg of citalopram. It was a purely heuristic try. The effect was so dramatic that I thought I would be completely healthy in few months and I only regretted that I had not tried it earlier. After about six months it stopped working and later I found out that the dose is important. My interpretation is that the immunosuppressive effect of antidepressants lessens the brain inflammation. But large dose of some antidepressants may cause cerebral vasospasms.

I don't think that anyone who responds to a chemical having vast known and unknown physiologic effects, that happens to be called 'antidepressant', must suffer from MDD, 'atypical depression' etc.
 

Alesh

Senior Member
Messages
191
Location
Czech Republic, EU
Hi Daffodil,

I am so sorry that you have to suffer so much.

Did you try resveratrol? I think that it is reasonable to suppose that due to evolutionary processes animals including humans have the capacity to trigger body healing mechanisms during fasting: If our ancestors, from bacteria to primates, fell ill from whatever reason, they were unable to get food and their survival and reproduction depended upon fast recovery.

It's only my speculation but what is proved beyond doubt is the fact that calorie restriction is the most effective means of extending the life span accross nearly all species.

It would be unreasonable to restrict food intake or to fast when suffering from such an exhausting and chronic disease as ME/CFS but it turns out that taking resveratrol can 'emulate' processes happening in a fasting brain.

It turns out that resveratrol works by activating SIRT1 gene which induces important houskeeping and restorative mechanisms of the brain.

Resveratrol is found in trace amounts, e.g., in red wine but it can be bought as a supplement in much more concentrated form.
 
C

Cloud

Guest
I knew that certain antibiotics have anti inflammatory effects (especially Azythromycin), but I didn't remember that AD's had any significant effect on the immune system. It's interesting how topics and latest interventions tend to recycle back into popularity over time.
Sertraline was the very first AD I took 17 years ago when I first got sick and the wanna be docs thought it was depression. I got the same reaction from Sertraline, that I later learned would be a common reaction to all AD's (and many other drugs)....I would feel better for 2-3 days and then get very sick....I mean like 10 fold sicker than pre-drug baseline.....very sick. I don't tolerate anything that affects my neurotranmsitters. It feels like I have been poisoned, and I understand this med intolerance reaction to be common with ME/CFS. That drug intolerance problem is the one symptom that has remained unchanged and constant throughout the duration of my illness. All I can say about the people who recover on Sertraline, or any other AD is.....I'm glad they recovered from whatever they had, but I highly doubt it was "Real ME/CFS".
 

gu3vara

Senior Member
Messages
339
I have the same problems as Cloud with AD, however at first, when I wasn't as sick, I could tolerate them and it even gave me enough energy to return back to work for 9 months. However, it's been totally impossible to take any AD in the last 3 years, it makes me feel so ill that I want to die.
 

heapsreal

iherb 10% discount code OPA989,
Messages
10,109
Location
australia (brisbane)
we have to remember ad's arent just for depression, they either increase serotonin or noradrenaline or both. with cfs/me it does effect the brain, i believe there is some damage done there and serotonin and or noradrenaline can adjust the brain to work around this damage, generally these drugs can also act like stimulants so could improve fatigue and cognitive problems through this means, also these drugs can have an effect of lowering pain as well. these drugs are not antidepressant(its a bad name like calling our illness fatigue) but serotonin and or noradrenaline reuptake inhibitors that have many effects and one seems to be for depression. I dont think these drugs are for everyone and i dont think they are a cure but they can help some of us with cfs with depression or without depression.

cheers!!!!
 

Tia

Senior Member
Messages
247
It seems crazy to take an anti-retroviral when you don't even know if you have a retrovirus (sorry if I missed anything, I didn't read the entire thread). Especially if you are getting worse - why???

And what if eventually you do turn out to be XMRV positive, and they find an anti-RV that works for XMRV way better than AZT or anything else, but now you can't take it because you've blown out your liver or kidneys taking something you didn't even need?

If it were me, I would stop taking any of those potentially toxic pharmaceuticals (for something you don't even know you have) and instead start taking supplements that are way safer and known to increase NK function, like various kinds of mushrooms (cordyceps, maitake, shiitake, reishi) and so on. JMHO, but it just seems to make more sense to treat what you know you have (impaired NK function, like most of us probably have) than something you might not.

I agree here. this is the EXACT reason why I don't want to take any antiviralmedication until the cure is out, wanna save my liver and kidneys from extra work and therefore exercise and eat as healthy as I can, so I'm saving and helping my body as much as I can for the big cure.