Another view of adrenal fatigue

drob31

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Oh boy. I agree that adrenal fatigue (or at least my adrenal fatigue) is a hypothalmus/pituitary signalling problem. And that the ASI shows there is a problem, but not why. Rich Vank said that it was due to lack of glutathione in those organs. The way to fix it is to increase glutathione by restoring methylation function.

Next, I don't agree with this person's treatment plan, which is really wacky. It looks like a regular sort of adrenal treatment plan, but it has supps that would both increase cortisol and decrease cortisol. This is like trying to drive a car with the foot on the gas and the brake at the same time. And then it pretty much includes the kitchen sink.

The reason why it might work for some people is that it includes a high dose B complex.

I'm going with what Rich said.
They may both be correct; low glutathione would allow higher levels of pro-oxides leading to cellular damage in these regions of the brain.
 

drob31

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Kruse agrees with some other Dr's, like Dr. Bryan Walsh about signaling. The PVN signaling is screwed up because of either damage or my theory is that it learned new signals incorrectly. It needs to be retrained (like GUPTA amygdala retaining) and or, damage repaired very creating an anti-inflammatory environment by using high dose phosphatidyl serine, and by boosting glutathione through methylation, and by limiting stimuli that contribute to the damage / aberrant behavior, such as caffeine, maladapted circadian rhythm, immune system issues caused by virus / food sensitivies / leaky gut / leaky brain / all forms of stress.
 

drob31

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An outline of his treatment protocol.

Treatments: Adaptogens Maca, Rhodiola, Holy Basil, Black cohosh root, licorice, Fo-ti root
Supplements: CoEnQ10 (ubiquinol) 400mgs to 1200 mgs, phosphatidylserine and choline, DHEA and pregnenolone replacement (all based upon lab values)
Treat with high dose B complex and vitamin C replacement to help liver detoxification phase 1 and phase 2 pathways
Introduction of Mind body meditation techniques in my view is critical to getting better.
Big thirst is a big symptom. Treat with hydration and salt tabs.
Astragalus (Qi-tonic or TA-65)
Melatonin
Progesterone
Complete darkness for sleep
Bioidentical cortisol (hydrocortisone)
Oxytocin (natural secretion is better than exogenous forms)
Colostrum
Replace vitamin D to minimum 50 ng/dl
GABA replacement
L-theanine (copiously found in green tea)
Avoid caffeine, chocolate, ephedra, guarana, kola nut, and prescription stimulants. (Ritalin)
For severe cases check Zinc and Copper levels as well. Fe levels and Hg levels in long standing cases
Expose yourself to low light situations as soon as the sun sets before bed
Pearls for a Adrenal optimization:
Sleep by 10 PM
Sleep in until 8:00 AM
Avoid over training
Do the things you enjoy
Avoid coffee or other caffeinated beverages; steep your tea!
Eat early within thirty minutes of rising
Have a glass of water in the morning with 1/2 to 1 teaspoon of salt
Avoid grains such as bread
Avoid starchy foods such as potato
Mind body mastery/ Laugh several times a day
Take vitamin C, pantothenic acid, magnesium, and vitamin E (Mixed tocophrenols)
Take pregnenolone and DHEA, as needed
Avoid becoming fatigued
Avoid high glycemic fruits
Never skip breakfast ever

You gotta love this one; Avoid being fatigued!

I thought I told you to avoid being fatigued! If you would just listen!
 

Ninan

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I've been thinking and I wonder about B12 and adrenals. I wonder if the energy effect I have from B12 (in the beginning low doses, now higher with C, Mg and Zn) is in fact a stimulating effect on the adrenals. 23andME said I was sensitive to methyl groups, they could be extra stimulating for me.

I hardly have any pain but have always thought that's due to high testosterone.

I guess it might just be wishful thinking, that it's adrenals and not ME. But my cortisol is floor level without B12/folate. And my crashes are very much what Dr Lam describes so I wonder if they are in fact AF crashes.

Foggy brain now. But I hope supporting my adrenals might help at least some. Eaiting for Adrenal Rebuilder since I don't seem to tolerate the other glandulars.
 

Ninan

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Which hair mineral test? Did you interpret it using Cutler's counting rules? The idea is to look and see if you have disordered mineral status, not the actual level of minerals per se.
Got an answer in the Cutler Facebook group yesterday. They say my hair mineral test is mercury positive. If that's correct, should the NutrEval show elevated levels in blood?
 
Got an answer in the Cutler Facebook group yesterday. They say my hair mineral test is mercury positive. If that's correct, should the NutrEval show elevated levels in blood?
A blood test like the Nutreval will only show current exposures. So for example, if you still had mercury fillings and were breathing the vapor, it would show up (mine did).

If you have old exposures, they will have left the blood and will be squirreled away in your body fat (including the brain which is mostly made up of fat).
 

Ninan

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A blood test like the Nutreval will only show current exposures. So for example, if you still had mercury fillings and were breathing the vapor, it would show up (mine did).

If you have old exposures, they will have left the blood and will be squirreled away in your body fat (including the brain which is mostly made up of fat).
Good, I still have them. Were your levels high enough you could show them to a doctor and get help?

I wonder though: I felt great from Pandemrix. More energy for a month. Why would I do that if mercury is a problem? Maybe the immune stimulating effect was stronger? Not sure what to think...
 
Good, I still have them. Were your levels high enough you could show them to a doctor and get help?

I wonder though: I felt great from Pandemrix. More energy for a month. Why would I do that if mercury is a problem? Maybe the immune stimulating effect was stronger? Not sure what to think...
Mine was in the lower part of the red range (elevated). I think I still had one filling at that time.

If your doctor prescribed the test and was wise to mercury toxicity, they should suggest removing the fillings and doing chelation. But doctors in general aren't going to do that.

Then you also have the issue of are they going to try to have you chelate the wrong way, which can make you worse.

My suggestion is to only do Cutler frequent dose chelation. This is based on experience learned the hard way.

You don't need a doctor to get your fillings out and do the Cutler protocol.

Yes, the Pandemrix could have stimulated your immune system and given you some energy for awhile.
 

Ninan

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Mine was in the lower part of the red range (elevated). I think I still had one filling at that time.

If your doctor prescribed the test and was wise to mercury toxicity, they should suggest removing the fillings and doing chelation. But doctors in general aren't going to do that.

Then you also have the issue of are they going to try to have you chelate the wrong way, which can make you worse.

My suggestion is to only do Cutler frequent dose chelation. This is based on experience learned the hard way.

You don't need a doctor to get your fillings out and do the Cutler protocol.

Yes, the Pandemrix could have stimulated your immune system and given you some energy for awhile.
How did taking your fillings out affect your health?

I have a friend who did it here, I can ask her.

I can't even afford to get down to my baseline healthwise so I will be very very careful if I'm going to do this.

Can mercury be a reason why the methylation protocol works so well for me (when it works at all)?
 
How did taking your fillings out affect your health?

I have a friend who did it here, I can ask her.

I can't even afford to get down to my baseline healthwise so I will be very very careful if I'm going to do this.

Can mercury be a reason why the methylation protocol works so well for me (when it works at all)?
Yes, you have to be careful when you get your fillings out. There is a protocol for doing so. The dentist has to do things the right way, and you also have to take some support supplements.

I don't remember any effects from getting my last filling out, but I wasn't really tuned into mercury redistribution symptoms at that time, so I could have had some but didn't connect the dots.

I think I was probably taking a fairly large amount of vitamin C at that time, and that's one of the support supplements, so maybe I lucked out.

Yes, mercury could be the reason the methylation protocol is helpful. Mercury causes a partial block in methylation. So either removing mercury or supporting methylation should help methylation.
 
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Something like this then. At least there are a lot of possible interventions. View attachment 15968
This makes sense to me! I feel like there are so many possible things to take and m in a really bad setback so my brains not really working--to interpret the info or, evidently, to make the hormones. Who is there who can help me? I'm on a methylation protocol and take lots of supplements, but evidently I need more intervention bc I'm practically bed bound.
 

Ninan

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Yes, mercury could be the reason the methylation protocol is helpful. Mercury causes a partial block in methylation. So either removing mercury or supporting methylation should help methylation.
My test "screams mercury" according to Cutler himself. He says methylation doesn't matter but to me it seems it does.

Do you think a high mercury load is the hen or the egg here, @caledonia ?
 
My test "screams mercury" according to Cutler himself. He says methylation doesn't matter but to me it seems it does.

Do you think a high mercury load is the hen or the egg here, @caledonia ?
Mercury is more of the chicken (hen) in this case.

However, once you get some mercury in you, and it impairs methylation and detox, then you will accumulate mercury more easily. In addition there are people with certain genes (SNPs) who don't detox as well and will accumulate mercury more easily instead of being able to detox it out.

So then a vicious cycle is set up where either you can't recover, or you get worse over time.

The stats I've heard are the average female can tolerate 4 mercury fillings before having impairments. For some people it would be more or less fillings depending on their genetics or other toxic exposures.

It's disengenuous for Cutler to say methylation doesn't matter. He does discuss methylation in his book, and prescribes methylation supplements (various B vitamins) for support while chelating. I think what he means is taking methylation supplements alone wouldn't get to the root cause, which is actually mercury.

However, we have proven on here that you can take high doses of methylation supplements and get a lot of recovery without chelating mercury. But for complete healing, you would want to get any mercury out.
 

Chocolove

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I've been thinking and I wonder about B12 and adrenals. I wonder if the energy effect I have from B12 (in the beginning low doses, now higher with C, Mg and Zn) is in fact a stimulating effect on the adrenals.
Dr. Lam comments in his book, "Central Nervous System Disruptions and Adrenal Fatigue Syndrome," (p.67-68) :

"Alert: Too much vitamin B can trigger crashes. Those who are weak and sensitive have to be extra careful. Side effects include anxiety, heart palpitations, and insomnia.

...Active forms of B vitamins are more potent since they are more useable than non-active forms. ...they may be too excitatory for those with weak adrenals."

Dr Lam discusses the neuroendocrine basis of Adrenal Fatigue Syndrome at the outset of this book.
 

drob31

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Adrenal fatigue is a brain illness in the sense that something has damaged or is damaging the brain, and that could be so many possibilities.
 

Chocolove

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@drob31 That is just one possibility. Clearly any and all organs of the body may be damaged or dysfunctional - It may be the Adrenal Glands.

According to William Jefferies in his book, "Safe Uses of Cortisol;"
"Both morphologic and physiologic studies point to a significant role of the adrenal glands in the defense mechanism of the body against intoxications and infectious diseases. In the 1920's, Aschoff and Goldzieher described striking morphologic changes in the adrenals in infectious diseases. Infections such as diphtheria, scarlet fever, and every septic condition observed during World War I, including streptococcal infections and infections due to gas bacillus, were associated with marked edema of the adrenal cortex and diffuse regression of lipoid material.

Fatal cases of malaria and peritonitis were also reported to have evidence of degeneration and necrosis in the adrenal cortex, with hemoorrhagic necrosis of the adrenal cortices in some cases of meningitis, so-called Waterhouse-Freiderichsen syndrome, was well known, and a less severe but life-threatening reverisible adrenal insufficiency has been reported in fulminant meningococcemia."

The clinical picture first described by Thomas Addison in 1855, subsequently known as Addison's, was caused most frequently by tuberculosis.

Unfortunately by the time Adrenal Insufficiency is diagnosed, 90% of the adrenal gland is destroyed.

According to http://emedicine.medscape.com/article/126806-overview#a5
"The adrenal gland has a rich arterial supply, in contrast to its limited venous drainage, which is critically dependent on a single vein. Furthermore, in stressful situations, ACTH secretion increases, which stimulates adrenal arterial blood flow that may exceed the limited venous drainage capacity of the organ and lead to hemorrhage.

In addition, adrenal vein spasm induced by high catecholamine levels secreted in stressful situations and by adrenal vein thrombosis induced by coagulopathies may lead to venous stasis and hemorrhage. Adrenal vein thrombosis has been found in several patients with adrenal hemorrhage, and it may occur in association with sepsis, heparin-induced thrombocytopenia, [3] primary antiphospholipid antibody syndrome, or disseminated intravascular coagulation (DIC).

Regardless of the precise mechanisms, extensive, bilateral adrenal hemorrhage commonly leads to acute adrenal insufficiency and adrenal crisis, unless it is recognized and treated promptly.

Patients with adrenal hemorrhage may die because of underlying disease or diseases associated with adrenal hemorrhage, despite treatment with stress-dose glucocorticoids.

Causes
In at least 50% of cases, bilateral adrenal hemorrhage is associated with an acute, stressful illness (eg, infection, congestive heart failure, myocardial infarction, complications of pregnancy) or event (eg, surgery or invasive procedure). Other frequent associations include hemorrhagic diatheses (eg, anticoagulant use, thrombocytopenia), thromboembolic disease (including antiphospholipid antibody syndrome), blunt trauma, and ACTH therapy. In addition, bilateral adrenal hemorrhage has been reported in patients with tuberculosis, amyloidosis, or metastatic tumors involving the adrenals, including lung adenocarcinoma. A multicenter, hospital-based, case-control study identified thrombocytopenia, heparin exposure, and sepsis as the major risk factors for the development of bilateral adrenal hemorrhage.

  • Infections associated with extensive, bilateral adrenal hemorrhage are diverse; they include sepsis, wound infections, pneumonia, pseudomembranous colitis, influenza, varicella, and malaria.
  • Waterhouse-Friderichsen syndrome (purpura fulminans) represents hemorrhagic necrosis of several organs, including adrenal hemorrhage, in the setting of overwhelming sepsis. The syndrome frequently is characterized by a distinctly hemorrhagic skin rash. Although Waterhouse-Friderichsen syndrome originally was recognized in association with meningococcal disease, which still accounts for 80% of cases, the syndrome also has been associated with other bacterial pathogens, including Streptococcus pneumoniae, group A beta-hemolytic streptococci, Neisseria gonorrhoeae, Escherichia coli, Klebsiella pneumoniae, Haemophilus influenzae (group B), Salmonella choleraesuis, Pasteurella multocida, Acinetobacter calcoaceticus, and Plesiomonas shigelloides. [5]
  • Congestive heart failure, myocardial infarction, inflammatory bowel disease, acute pancreatitis, and cirrhosis also have been associated with bilateral adrenal hemorrhage. [6]
  • Obstetric causes of bilateral adrenal hemorrhage include toxemia of pregnancy, spontaneous abortion, antepartum or postpartum hemorrhage, twisted ovarian cyst (in pregnancy), and primary antiphospholipid antibody syndrome. Spontaneous adrenal hemorrhage during pregnancy has rarely been described.
  • Coronary artery bypass graft surgery, hip joint replacement, intracranial surgery, and hepatic arterial chemoembolization are procedures associated with bilateral adrenal hemorrhage. [7] Heparin-induced thrombocytopenia may predispose to adrenal hemorrhage in some of these patients.
  • Hemorrhagic diatheses, including anticoagulant use, thrombocytopenia, and vitamin K deficiency have been associated with approximately one third of bilateral adrenal hemorrhage cases. Heparin use accounts for the majority of cases of anticoagulant-associated, bilateral adrenal hemorrhage. In such cases, bilateral adrenal hemorrhage occurs despite the fact that the activated partial thromboplastin time is almost invariably therapeutic, and adrenal hemorrhage represents an isolated event without evidence of bleeding elsewhere. Heparin-induced thrombocytopenia (HIT) was found to underlie several bilateral adrenal hemorrhage cases, although the precise role of HIT in the pathogenesis of heparin-induced adrenal hemorrhage has not been fully elucidated. [8]
  • Arterial (eg, pulmonary embolism, cerebrovascular disease, peripheral arterial embolism) and venous (eg, deep venous thrombosis, superficial thrombophlebitis) causes have been associated with bilateral adrenal hemorrhage in one third of cases. Antiphospholipid antibody syndrome (either primary or secondary to systemic lupus erythematosus) has been associated with bilateral adrenal hemorrhage. [9, 10, 11]
  • Blunt trauma of diverse etiologies, ranging from motor vehicle accidents to a truck ride over a bumpy road, has been associated with bilateral adrenal hemorrhage.
  • Underlying adrenal pathologic conditions, including granulomatous diseases, amyloidosis, and metastatic cancer (eg, lung or gastric adenocarcinoma), have been associated with bilateral adrenal hemorrhage.
  • Treatment with ACTH for multiple sclerosis or inflammatory bowel disease has in some cases been associated with bilateral adrenal hemorrhage."
 

Thinktank

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Has anyone tried Cycloset, aka bromocriptine? It's really easy to get.
I have the same question Anyone experience with bromocriptine?

I would like to experiment with something that is dopaminergic and at the same time lowers prolactin.