ANABOLIC STEROIDS FOLKS?

[pattismith]

I am female and have testo levels in "normal" range yet I greatly benefited from taking about 20mg a week of testosterone injections. however over time "side effects" too many red blood cells, decreased HDL.. I cut the dose way down.. now I take only about 4mg a week. it took a while but facial hair did develop. I wish there were a way to get the effects, I did like the feeling of being able to go to the gym , and being stronger, it gave a great sense of well being. I wish there was something to give positive benefits without the masculine effects.

I use testosterone gel.

That said, if I must become a man to be disease free, I sign the paper today…. I have already sign the paper to renounce to maternity because of my illness.

But for now, it seems that part of the testosterone is raising my estrogen, as my breast is getting much bigger...

 

[heapsreal]

I'd like to keep this thread going. Did anyone experiment with anabolic steroids? Anyone get anymore information? I've been suggesting this for years for the CFS community and was typically met with misunderstandings such as "those are dangerous". Like many pharmaceuticals the risk is small when used properly.

I'm not talking about TRT, which is useless if your hormone levels are not low. I'm taking about the type of usage competitive athletes do, which of course must be cycled on and off. It is too harsh on your body for continuous use.

If you do a cycle of steroids theres a chance your natural testosterone wont return. Anabolic steroids are a derivative of testosterone. Unless you are going to run higher doses than trt forever, there wont be any long term effects that will help you with cfsme once your off. Higher doses more likely to shut you down and harder to restart with post cycle therapy once your off.

So i dont think running a course would be helpful but running trt/hrt which is basically forever can have benefits for those with low T and maybe those even within the normal range but too low to be optimal .

 

[Henrik]

I'd like to keep this thread going. Did anyone experiment with anabolic steroids? Anyone get anymore information? I've been suggesting this for years for the CFS community and was typically met with misunderstandings such as "those are dangerous". Like many pharmaceuticals the risk is small when used properly.

I'm not talking about TRT, which is useless if your hormone levels are not low. I'm taking about the type of usage competitive athletes do, which of course must be cycled on and off. It is too harsh on your body for continuous use.

Sure, I'm doing it right now. As in I'm doing supraphysiological amounts and not TRT. There are clearly downsides both in practical terms and if you consider long term health benefits, but anabolic steroids do work. Just make sure you read up on it and work with a knowledgeable doctor. You should be aware that discussing anabolic steroids can be frustrating. There is a massive stigma about it and most people are ignorant about what it is and how it works. I think AAS should be a last option, but I was running out of things to try and I was in a bad place health wise. AAS is also cheaper and a lot safer than a lot of other pharmaceuticals if done right.

 

[Hd-x]

I am since 3years on TRT (Testesteron E7d 125mg).
doing so helped a lot, have less PEM and more power. it tooks a long time, but was finally able to do some weight lifting (HIT - still without going to muscle failure).
Certainly it also had some downsides - too much Testosteron ramped up my blood pressure und most times I sticked on TRT stock dosing regime.
I was also concerned if supraphysiological Testosterone amounts could supress immune system?

So I was considering stacking the TRT dosing regime with some low dose DecaDurabolin or Anavar.
Here and there you can read in the web, Deca and/or Anavar may improve immune system:
http://www.medibolics.com/as_immun.htm

I wasnt able to find all refered studies, but I found the mentioned arthitis study:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1824615
The study didnt use Deca (nandrolone undecanoate), it uses testosterone undecanoate.
Ok, I checked the Nandrolone manufactor datasheet, it mentioned "positive effects" on immune function, but didnt explain the effects any closer: https://www.sigmaaldrich.com/content/dam/sigma-aldrich/docs/Sigma/Datasheet/4/n169dat.pdf

Did someone use Deca or Anavar,
did it improve yours immune system?

 

[Merrick]

Yes Henrik, that is exactly what I was thinking. And I understand people don't know how AAS works and don't understand how to minimize the risks. But in the end, if it helps you lead a normal life, you simply can't put a price on that.

 

[Merrick]

If you do a cycle of steroids theres a chance your natural testosterone wont return. Anabolic steroids are a derivative of testosterone. Unless you are going to run higher doses than trt forever, there wont be any long term effects that will help you with cfsme once your off. Higher doses more likely to shut you down and harder to restart with post cycle therapy once your off.

So i dont think running a course would be helpful but running trt/hrt which is basically forever can have benefits for those with low T and maybe those even within the normal range but too low to be optimal .

It is definitely a delicate science to cycle AAS and then successful PCT. But it is done all the time by bodybuilders and athletes. And of course you would not reap the benefits when you are off cycle, but I'd rather feel good at least some of the time, then none of the time

 

[heapsreal]

It is definitely a delicate science to cycle AAS and then successful PCT. But it is done all the time by bodybuilders and athletes. And of course you would not reap the benefits when you are off cycle, but I'd rather feel good at least some of the time, then none of the time

Worth considering a lowish blast and cruise then. Cruise on 125mg of T and blast on 350 to 500mg of T or a combo of T and deca for 8 weeks then back to cruise dose.

 

[heapsreal]

I was also concerned if supraphysiological Testosterone amounts could supress immune system?

Its common for people and doctors to lump all steroids together from testosterone, anabolic steroids to catabolic steroids like cortisone and prednisone. But they lump them together as if they have the same immune suppressing effects as cortisone and prednisone, which is not the case.

 

[Hd-x]

High AAS dosage in the long term are sometimes linked with abnormal Immunoglubine levels.
Reduced NK cell activity may perhaps occur even on "mild" T-roid cycles : https://www.academia.edu/23105763/N...without_testosterone_enanthate_administration
However, otherwise the study didnt show what happens after 6weeks administration.

Cruise on 125mg of T and blast on 350 to 500mg of T or a combo of T and deca for 8 weeks then back to cruise dose.

Didn´t you get any side effects from 500mg T like higher blood pressure, thicker blood, higher cholesterine, water rentention and more acne? I am not sure, obvisously stacking T with a less androgenic AAS, may be perhaps the better solution?

Has someone tried SARMs like Cardarine (GW-501516) or Rev-arbA (Sr9009)?
SR9009 showed (animal studies) increased mitochondria (count/capacity) and more endurance. Somewhat similar for Cardarine. Curiously, SRAMs are wordwide availible in supplemente stores or Ebay.
However, I never tried SRAM/Rev.erba as far as I know Glaxo dropped further investigation in these drug classes. (few SRAMs showed serious cancerogenic side effects in animal study at high dosages. I dont know how much about this is myth or not)

 

[Merrick]

Worth considering a lowish blast and cruise then. Cruise on 125mg of T and blast on 350 to 500mg of T or a combo of T and deca for 8 weeks then back to cruise dose.

Yes, but the problem with "cruising" on a low dose is you get none of the benefits and still some of the downsides. Your normal T shuts off, since it's getting it externally and your overall T is not high enough to feel any ergogenic effects.

 

[Merrick]

High AAS dosage in the long term are sometimes linked with abnormal Immunoglubine levels.
Reduced NK cell activity may perhaps occur even on "mild" T-roid cycles : https://www.academia.edu/23105763/N...without_testosterone_enanthate_administration
However, otherwise the study didnt show what happens after 6weeks administration.

Yes I don't think anyone in the know would ever recommend high dose AAS in the long term. That is always dangerous. It must be cycled on and off.

 

[heapsreal]

http://www.medibolics.com/as_immun.htm

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2674590

Theres many hiv studies showing improvements in immune function with AAS.

 

[heapsreal]

Didn´t you get any side effects from 500mg T like higher blood pressure, thicker blood, higher cholesterine, water rentention and more acne? I am not sure, obvisously stacking T with a less androgenic AAS, may be perhaps the better solution?

Water retention and high bp from water retention is usually if one aromatises testosterone to estrogen to a higher rate than average, some guys its just mot a problem. Its remedy by lowering the dose or by using an aromatize inhibitor which blocks the convertion of T to E.

Increases in haemoglobin is what people refer to as thick blood from testosterone use. Research showing people who live at high altitude who make high amounts of haemoglobin, naturally because of the altitude and have haemoglobin levels similar to high AAS dosage use, have no increased incidents of strokes or heart attacks. But if one is concerned and tests show its high then guys on hrt just donate blood or get their dr to order a therapeutic phlebotomy, usually about 500mls of blood. People should be doing this under the care of a dr and have this monitored.

As for cholesterol, some guys on hrt improve their cholesterol numbers. High cholesterol values seem to be more common with oral AAS, which is different to TRT or even using higher doses of testosterone. Also oral steroids greatly increase liver and kidney stress where injectable testosterone would be minimal if any especially trt which is replacing your low natural T, with a higher optimal level of T.

 

[heapsreal]

Yes, but the problem with "cruising" on a low dose is you get none of the benefits and still some of the downsides. Your normal T shuts off, since it's getting it externally and your overall T is not high enough to feel any ergogenic effects.

Most guys with a chronic illness with have low testosterone, so a dose of 125mg per week can make a big difference. But one dose will effect another guy differently eg 125mg might get one guy to the top of the testosterone range and another guy might fall right in the middle of the range. That dose in a cruise can help you maintain gains, possibly better than coming off and trying to restart your own production with hcg, clomid etc.

A guy should consider his fertility before jumping on TRT etc because it could make it difficult down the track trying to have kids.

Blast and cruise is just another option. Nothing wrong with cycling off. Just have to research the best way for you to do it or try and find a dr who understands it, which can be just as hard as finding a dr to help with cfsme.

 

[sb4]

@heapsreal I have noticed my bloating around the face and stomach has decreased since doing 1mg Test. I will try to get my old bloods off the doc next time I see her. I understand that standard / NHS tests for estrogen in males isn't that useful though, is that correct?

 

[heapsreal]

@heapsreal I have noticed my bloating around the face and stomach has decreased since doing 1mg Test. I will try to get my old bloods off the doc next time I see her. I understand that standard / NHS tests for estrogen in males isn't that useful though, is that correct?

It can give you a rough idea but there are more sensitive tests. Big question is what will a dr do about it if your estrogen is high? Plus with hormone labs the ranges from low to high is a massive gap. You could be in the normal range and they will say everything is fine, but for guys who have estrogen in thst upper third of the normal range you can have estrogen symptoms from breast swelling, fluid retention, erectile dysfunction, depression, lack of energy and joint pain. But dont just go off symptoms until you've been around the block a few times because many symptoms of high estrogen in men are the same symptoms when estrogen is too low.

 

[sb4]

It can give you a rough idea but there are more sensitive tests. Big question is what will a dr do about it if your estrogen is high? Plus with hormone labs the ranges from low to high is a massive gap. You could be in the normal range and they will say everything is fine, but for guys who have estrogen in thst upper third of the normal range you can have estrogen symptoms from breast swelling, fluid retention, erectile dysfunction, depression, lack of energy and joint pain. But dont just go off symptoms until you've been around the block a few times because many symptoms of high estrogen in men are the same symptoms when estrogen is too low.

Yeah they will probably do nothing about it or they won't even identify correctly if it's a problem in the first place. This is why it is important for me to get the results myself.

 

[Hd-x]

Theres many hiv studies showing improvements in immune function with AAS.

Unfortunatly, such old studies will not convince my doctor to prescibe Deca, because these older AAS studies are controversial. And yes, there was also a CFS/FM patent paper, showing a few CFS cases getting a remission after AAS treatment with Anavar (*), but also this AAS patent paper was very old and outdated.
(* as far as I remember)

Water retention and high bp from water retention is usually if one aromatises testosterone to estrogen to a higher rate than average, some guys its just mot a problem.

My estrogen levels were fine, SHGB good and much free /(unbound) T.
I didnt notice much water retention. Nevertheless, high blood pressure occurs in my case.
However, at last it is hard to justice if the high blood pressure is still Testosterone related. My body weight was 70kg, meanwhile 90kg. (I got from 2017/18 a partly CFS remission/recovery and gained during this time some muscle mass). 2019 my CFS worsens again, obsiously my higher weight and currently less mobility may be now one more reason for higher bp.

If I wouldnt have the high bp,
I would dose between 180-250mg E7d permanently. I know several older guys from the gym doing so. Most off them didn´t get any long term AAS related heart issues like (camber) wall thickness at such dosage. This didnt mean heart problems can´t occur, it still means the risc may be lower then with any higher dosing regime.

 

[heapsreal]

didnt notice much water retention. Nevertheless, high blood pressure occurs in my case.

Ive read where a few guys who also had hypertension but with no fluid retention or e2 issues etc. Guessing testosterone - dopamine connection can be somewhat stimulating and possibly cause hypertension. Apparently they responded well to magnesium glycinate to lower their bp.

 

[sb4]

My feet swelled up yesterday which has never really happened before. They are back to normal this morning.