Amphetamine is an instant, but short lasting, cure

[IreneF]

I have a long history with psychiatric drugs. Most of them didn't do a thing, but whenI took Zyprexa I gained about 20 lb. It turns out the atypical antipsychotics not only cause wt. gain, they also cause diabetes. I also took Dexedrine at low doses before I got CFS. It didn't do a thing and I didn't have any problem stopping.

My son falls asleep when he takes stimulants. Go figure.

 

[Hip]

I have a long history with psychiatric drugs. Most of them didn't do a thing, but whenI took Zyprexa I gained about 20 lb. It turns out the atypical antipsychotics not only cause wt. gain, they also cause diabetes. I also took Dexedrine at low doses before I got CFS. It didn't do a thing and I didn't have any problem stopping.

My son falls asleep when he takes stimulants. Go figure.

It says here that the risk of developing diabetes mellitus from risperidone is 0.05% (= 1 in 2000 patients), and the risk from clozapine is 2.03% (= 1 in 50 patients). Though these statistics I should think apply to people taking the full dose of these drugs.

In the case of the amisulpride that I am taking, since my dose of 12.5 mg is almost 100 times smaller than the highest 1200 mg dose, presumably that significantly lowers the diabetes risk.


Does your son have ADHD by any chance? Stimulants excite most people, but paradoxically they calm and relax those with ADHD. I presume that's how stimulants can help those with ADHD, by relaxing their over-excited minds.

 

[DeGenesis]

Does your son have ADHD by any chance? Stimulants excite most people, but paradoxically they calm and relax those with ADHD. I presume that's how stimulants can help those with ADHD, by relaxing their over-excited minds.

Stimulants work for ADHD by increasing dopamine and norepinephrine in the PFC.

 

[Hip]

Stimulants work for ADHD by increasing dopamine and norepinephrine in the PFC.

True, but I think the mental relaxation induced by stimulants may also play a role in ameliorating ADHD. Perhaps the relaxation is mediated by the effects on the prefrontal cortex?

I developed pretty severe ADHD after getting ME/CFS, and also from an episode of viral meningitis. On some days I could not even read a simple one paragraph email. I just could not input the text info on the computer screen into my brain.

It subjectively felt to me that my brain had too much internal tension to function properly, and that this tension was the cause of the ADHD. I was taking a cocktail of supplements to try to treat the ADHD; and I also found long hot baths worked wonders for my ADHD (probably due to the fever effect); whenever these supplements and hot baths succeeded in relaxing this internal tension, then my ADHD would diminish, and my brain would then function properly — at least enough to enable me to read my emails.

So I find it interesting that: (a) not only me, but many ADHD people complain of the inability to calm their mind; (b) that when I was able to calm my mind, my ADHD would melt away, and I would function properly for a while.

I have yet to try stimulants for ADHD, but generally my ADHD is now much better than it was. It is a pity that you cannot buy stimulants like Ritalin online, as they are controlled drugs. I am not sure what my doctor would say I asked for some Ritalin from him. He's not that sympathetic to the idea that I have ME/CFS, so he may not be sympathetic to me saying that I have ADHD either.

 

[DeGenesis]

I have yet to try stimulants for ADHD, but generally my ADHD is now much better than it was. It is a pity that you cannot buy stimulants like Ritalin online, as they are controlled drugs. I am not sure what my doctor would say I asked for some Ritalin from him. He's not that sympathetic to the idea that I have ME/CFS, so he may not be sympathetic to me saying that I have ADHD either.

An advantage to Ritalin (methylphenidate) is that it is conclusively non-neurotoxic, and may actually be neuroprotective. It has a short half-life, and can be taken as needed.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2701286/

Amphetamine has a longer half-life (9-11 hours, according to Wikipedia [sourced]). Odd considering therapeutic effects last for 3 to 4 hours with IR dextroamphetamine. I think it interferes with sleep quality. Can you imagine the controlled release versions?

Buying drugs over the internet, heck, even from your local convenience store, is a bit of political discussion. Unlike in the United States, it is illegal to import any prescription drug into Canada that you do not have an prescription for, never mind controlled substances. There are some that believe that people need to be protected from themselves, and that there should be a million regulations (except for cannabis, of course), and then there are those who think the flood gates should be wide open to everything. Then there are all those in the somewhere in the muddy middle. Personally, I don't think those with MDs should hold a monopoly on prescribing drugs.

 

[Hip]

I did not realize it was difficult to import drugs into Canada. It says here that Canada, like the US and UK, Canada allows you to import a three-month supply of a prescription medicine for your personal use, but in Canada you must personally bring the drug over the border.

 

[DeGenesis]

Yep, I considered ordering to a US address before, but coming back over the border you would have to declare them, and if the border officer is having a bad day, you are pretty well at his or her mercy. I am referring to non-controlled substances.

 

[heapsreal]

True, but I think the mental relaxation induced by stimulants may also play a role in ameliorating ADHD. Perhaps the relaxation is mediated by the effects on the prefrontal cortex?

I developed pretty severe ADHD after getting ME/CFS, and also from an episode of viral meningitis. On some days I could not even read a simple one paragraph email. I just could not input the text info on the computer screen into my brain.

It subjectively felt to me that my brain had too much internal tension to function properly, and that this tension was the cause of the ADHD. I was taking a cocktail of supplements to try to treat the ADHD (and I also found long hot baths worked wonders for my ADHD); whenever these supplements and hot baths succeeded in relaxing this internal tension, then my ADHD would diminish, and my brain would then function properly — at least enough to enable me to read my emails.

So I find it interesting that: (a) not only me, but many ADHD people complain of the inability to calm their mind; (b) that when I was able to calm my mind, my ADHD would melt away, and I would function properly for a while.

I have yet to try stimulants for ADHD, but generally my ADHD is now much better than it was. It is a pity that you cannot buy stimulants like Ritalin online, as they are controlled drugs. I am not sure what my doctor would say I asked for some Ritalin from him. He's not that sympathetic to the idea that I have ME/CFS, so he may not be sympathetic to me saying that I have ADHD either.

I think the stimulants work at calming these patients down as it helps them to be able to focus and maintain their attention which they have problems doing and this is what they say causes their irratic behaviour. So its not calming them down like a sedative but more so channelling their focus.

Many people would find that increasing their levels of dopamine would have a calming yet alert feeling but i guess this wouldnt help those with psychotic behaviour from possible high dopamine levels?

Other dopamine agonist though are know to cause sedation as well. Dopamine appears to have a few different sub groups within itself that appear to have opposite reactions.

Another group of meds that doesnt always seem to make sense is the snri type antidepressants which are used for anxiety etc, what doesnt make sense to me on paper is that these meds are suppose to increase noradrenaline levels which one would think would worsen anxiety. In saying that snri's can worsen anxiety for some, its seems very hit and miss. Maybe some anxiety issues could be related to low energy/noradrenaline??

When looking into neurochemistry there seems to be lots of swings and round abouts?? @alex3619 lemon rule in play again.

 

[DeGenesis]

I think the stimulants work at calming these patients down as it helps them to be able to focus and maintain their attention which they have problems doing and this is what they say causes their irratic behaviour. So its not calming them down like a sedative but more so channelling their focus.

Bingo. If a stimulant is over dosed (usually do to lack of titration), it can lead to hyperfocus. A classic example of this is the guy on amphetamine who spends the day making lists, but doesn't actually get anything done because he misses the big picture.

Norepinphrine is probably more important than dopamine when it comes to the beneficial effects of methylphenidate and amphetamine when it comes to ADHD. You feel fan-effing-tastic for a few days, but then tolerance sets in and you would need to increase the dose to maintain the high. Tolerance does not develop to it's beneficial effects WRT ADHD. D4 receptors also do not downregulate with chronic usage. D4 receptors appear to be closely linked with cognition.

 

[DeGenesis]

So this alpha 2 adrenergic receptor antagonism makes risperidone an alpha blocker drug.

It's important to note that antagonism at alpha-2 receptors increases both serotonergic and adrenergic signalling.

Here it is for risperidone:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9194049

 

[heapsreal]

Bingo. If a stimulant is over dosed (usually do to lack of titration), it can lead to hyperfocus. A classic example of this is the guy on amphetamine who spends the day making lists, but doesn't actually get anything done because he misses the big picture.

Norepinphrine is probably more important than dopamine when it comes to the beneficial effects of methylphenidate and amphetamine when it comes to ADHD. You feel fan-effing-tastic for a few days, but then tolerance sets in and you would need to increase the dose to maintain the high. Tolerance does not develop to it's beneficial effects WRT ADHD. D4 receptors also do not downregulate with chronic usage. D4 receptors appear to be closely linked with cognition.

I'm not a big fan of noradrenaline, I tried a noradrenaline reuptake inhibitor edronax, gave me some energy for a short while then I was overstimulated, couldn't stop sweating, and couldn't sleep. The next day everything but the few hours of good energy.

I think I used a 1/4 of a pill, usual dose is 1 pill twice a day. Way too much for me.

 

[Valentijn]

So, I think I understand the elephant in the room. If I am wrong. Tell me to shut my mouth. Or just follow me and like any post that disagrees with me .

I understand that there is a huge amount of anti-psychiatry sentiment around here, and who can blame any of you?

You're wrong.

There is not "anti-psychiatry" sentiment. Rather, many of us have tried various drugs and found them typically unhelpful and often even harmful. Since ME has little or no direct psychiatric component, it's not very surprising that drugs addressing other symptoms are usually more helpful.

 

[alex3619]

I am with @Valentijn on the position re anti-psychiatry. We are not antipsychiatry but anti bad science, and much of psychiatry is bad science at best, nonscience at worst. I have done CBT and various drugs ... failures, though CBT helped me a tiny bit in putting things in perspective ... but I had already figured out those lessons. Mind you this was standard CBT, not what is typically recommended in the UK for ME.

We are not antipsychiatry. We often have enormous sympathy for people with psychiatric disorders. We have tried many of these things, either out of desperation or if we can find some evidence it might help. What I really dislike, is unjustified dogmatic unproven overhyped claims from psychiatry.

I think we need psychiatry, and I think psychiatry is in danger of becoming substantially discredited. I think it can be saved. However the babble that is being used right now to make unsubstantiable claims needs to be opposed, not just for ME patients but for everyone at risk from it, and that includes psychiatrists themselves. The psychiatric profession has itself and its irrational claims as its own worst enemy.

 

[misskatniss]

@alex3619 I would like to make a tiny difference even if it seems unseparable: Psychodrugs MIGHT in lo doses help some people out there to at least get a little relief (I did not claim without paying any price for that!). What harmed me more than the drugs (in my case in way too high doses) is the view of psychiatrists. Their unfounded blah blah about the hidden paths of my soul which I must simply discover and I´d get better (and if not, it´s just my fault as I am too stupid, reluctant, anti-therapy o whatsoever), that was most harmfl, also because I couldn´t prove the contrary and because they would interpret any of my "no"s (no to further drugs after bad experiences with the ones I had tried) as reluctancy. THAT is the real danger out of that corner, plus their power to incarcerate people like poor Karina. At least we have a law in my county against forced medication. One psychiatrist in the clinic was a really wise person, I like her still, but she was unable, too, to let go of her professional point of view which is: We can explain everything with the soul. And in case we can´t, we can still explain that we can´t with the dirty tricks of the soul. Argh.

 

[alex3619]

Read my Lemon Rule, Rule 22:

22. Most treatments for ME are lemons, they don't suit everyone - but you often wont know if it suits you until you suck it and see. If you see a soured look on my face you will know why. http://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?entries/28-rules-of-thumb.941/

I am not against people trying things, I have tried more than most, though not as much as some.

Psychobabble is something else. Its intrinsically antiscience, what came to be labeled first as nonscience, and then as pseudoscience.

 

[Hip]

It's important to note that antagonism at alpha-2 receptors increases both serotonergic and adrenergic signalling.

Here it is for risperidone:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9194049

I found this article on the use of alpha and beta blockers for ME/CFS. The article said that on the first analysis these would appear to be bad for ME/CFS, as they increase sympathetic nervous system (SNS) activity, which is already thought to be in overdrive in ME/CFS; however, the article says that paradoxically, low doses of alpha or beta blockers may actually serve to reduce SNS activity.

In the case of the beta blocker propranolol, low dose means 10 to 20 mg.

 

[heapsreal]

I guess psychiatry are trying to make out they are neurologists as they prescribe drugs that can help neurological symptoms?

 

[Leopardtail]

It's important to note that antagonism at alpha-2 receptors increases both serotonergic and adrenergic signalling.

Here it is for risperidone:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9194049

I read it differently. It talks about both antagonism of of alpha2 receptors (this would impair the calming and sensory filtering effects of Norepinephrine) and direct stimulation of 5HT (Serotonin) receptors.

 

[heapsreal]

I read it differently. It talks about both antagonism of of alpha2 receptors (this would impair the calming and sensory filtering effects of Norepinephrine) and direct stimulation of 5HT (Serotonin) receptors.

for what its worth tizanidine is an alpha 2 agonist used as a muscle relaxer and helps with sleep initiation, only has a short half life so can be useful for people who wake in the middle of the night too?? Im sure many of these meds also affect other adrenergic receptors but to a much lesser degree. One example would be salbutamol for asthmatics which targets beta 2 receptors to relax smooth muscle of the respiratory system, a common side effect is tachycardia as it also has some effect on beta 1 receptors.

 

[DeGenesis]

You're wrong.

There is not "anti-psychiatry" sentiment. Rather, many of us have tried various drugs and found them typically unhelpful and often even harmful. Since ME has little or no direct psychiatric component, it's not very surprising that drugs addressing other symptoms are usually more helpful.

You should have quoted my full post. I said that psychiatric drugs may have uses that are beyond the scope of psychiatry.

Also, do you speak for everyone at this forum?

You clearly stalk me and take any chance to attack me. What's up?