Am I obsessing too much over the gut?

[Learner1]

I have gone totally gluten free several times now and I have not noticed any improvements to my health at all by doing this. It was expensive and time consuming and all for nothing.

It's not an on-off switch. It typically takes months to heal any gut damage from gluten, if you have any.

Eating nutrient dense food like organic vegetables, eggs, meat, fish, nuts and seeds will be more time consuming and expensive. And maybe provide our bodies with cofactors they need to drive our biochemistry.

Avoiding synthetic folic acid and RoundUp are helpful too.

 

[arewenearlythereyet]

Gary Taubes' extremely well researched book, "Good Calories, Bad Calories," gives plenty of information that supports wheat flour and excess carbs causing these diseases, with ample citations. He also gives a lot of history on the politics of grain consumption in the US, which are still at work today with so-called experts ridiculing those who choose to eschew gluten in the pursuit of health.

This 2012 article discusses the health implications of non-celiac gluten sensitivity:

http://www.biomedcentral.com/content/pdf/1741-7015-10-13.pdf

And there are pitfalls to substituting other grains. Corn is problematic due to Roundup and rice tends to have arsenic, particularly brown rice.

In the pursuit of being well, if in doubt, perhaps it's best to look at what might be causing aspects of our problem and avoid these triggers.

In my travels to some excellent clinics I've found most other patients have come to the conclusion that gluten is counterproductive to their health, and they sure didn't make that choice because they wanted to be hip and trendy...it's a pain in the neck to eat differently (but worth it).

I think we are cross purposes I have no beef about people wanting to reduce carbs, which I believe to be beneficial. I do it myself. I also don't do it to be hip and trendy (not sure why you keep saying that)

I'm just trying to clear up your confusing statements about carbs and gluten.

gluten is a protein and there is no link that gluten the protein causes cancer or obesity or any of the other claims you have made.

I do fundamentally disagree with you that wheat flour products are any worse than any other form of starch based foods (rice, potatoes etc) . It's hype I'm afraid and pretty much groundless from a scientific point of view. The only main exception is coeliac disease as I have mentioned and a few people with coeliac-like sensitivity which are few and far between if you take out the self diagnosed.

Where we agree though is that reducing carbohydrate consumption can have a beneficial effect. This is because we are currently eating too many carbs due to refined flour and sugar being cheap that help to keep food prices down. Most western diets are too carb heavy, but this is nothing to do with food biochemistry ...more economic.

Happy to review any scientific papers you have that show that gluten causes cancer, obesity or diabetes or that gluten containing foods are worse than other foods containing starch for gut health or anything else for that matter. These are substantiative claims to make and highly misleading. Perhaps quote the specific scientific studies that make you think this?

With a few nuances in tertiary structure across plant types, starch is starch and certainly when it's broken down in the gut it's mainly glucose by the time it gets anywhere near yeasts or moulds.

I would advise eating a balanced diet with a good mix of carbs (moderating refined flours) for reasons already mentioned. The trick is to find the right balance of food groups that work for the individual which I think we both agree on.

 

[Prefect]

So...When you folx go on these restrictive diets, do you take multivitamins to avoid getting malnourished?

I mean what you're taking out is like half of Canada's food guide right there.

 

[Prefect]

I should also add, I've lost 10 pounds in the past 8 months (mainly because on my recent 50% custody of my 2 year old and the crazy kid is I think giving me Adrenal Fatigue due to sleep disruption-I think my cortisol has tanked).

As a 47 year old male, that puts my BMI at 21.3, which puts me within 6th percentile of people in North America my height and age.

I'm scared of going on a diet of some sort, not sure my body has enough fat left to do it.lol

 

[arewenearlythereyet]

So...When you folx go on these restrictive diets, do you take multivitamins to avoid getting malnourished?

I mean what you're taking out is like half of Canada's food guide right there.

I am not recommending you do a restrictive diet. The more food groups the better, eat what you like for definite, just moderate the amounts. Supplements are a whole other topic and mainly to do with dysfunctional metabolism.

 

[Prefect]

We live in a factually nebulous world now, I feel.

Information has never been more available than now, and yet truth...has never been more elusive.

 

[TigerLilea]

It's not an on-off switch. It typically takes months to heal any gut damage from gluten, if you have any.

Eating nutrient dense food like organic vegetables, eggs, meat, fish, nuts and seeds will be more time consuming and expensive. And maybe provide our bodies with cofactors they need to drive our biochemistry.

Avoiding synthetic folic acid and RoundUp are helpful too.

My experience has been than when I find a food that is a problem for me, I will notice changes within the first week. One article I read said that you should notice within two weeks.

 

[Misfit Toy]

This is what is interesting to me. I avoid gluten, milk, soy, tomato and pears. I am allergic. The AI diet says to do this and yet....I am no better. So whenever anyone says to avoid gluten and dairy....does that heal the gut? Because I have done that for years and still have "gut issues." I take probiotics everyday, too.

 

[TigerLilea]

This is what is interesting to me. I avoid gluten, milk, soy, tomato and pears. I am allergic. The AI diet says to do this and yet....I am no better. So whenever anyone says to avoid gluten and dairy....does that heal the gut? Because I have done that for years and still have "gut issues." I take probiotics everyday, too.

If you eat those offending foods, what symptoms do you notice?

 

[Misfit Toy]

If you eat those offending foods, what symptoms do you notice?

I notice I don't feel well, especially with milk. But-I still have GI troubles in spite of cutting them out.

 

[Prefect]

Okay, so since yesterday, I've cut out dairy, carby fruits, all grains and high starch food, and gluten sources, just for the heck of it.

We can all see this experiment at play. I'm a crazy cook guy, so culinary ventures don't phase me much. I'm also a pretty touch guy, so I think I can handle this sudden change. If not I'll let you know, lol. Let's see how many days I can do this before I keel over. Hopefully not today or tomorrow as I have my highly energized 2 years old.

So far all I've felt is continued hunger during and even after eating a meal, which abates after 0.5 an hour, and my arms and legs feel slightly weak likely due to mild hypoglycemia and the fact that my body almost has no fat as we speak.

I changed my diet to this:

Breakfast

One black tea a day, steeped for 0.5 hr to maximize l theanine production. No Sugar.

Two eggs. No butter, only canola oil or boiled.

Almonds, pistachios, carrots, tomatoes, and pumpkin seeds for carbs.

Before lunch

Black berries or raspberries. Finding low carb fruits is a challenge.

Lunch

Some type of meat with either cauliflower, broccoli, squash, beets, mushrooms, zucchini, or sweet potatoes

or

Can of sardines (only in spring water) with salad.

Almonds, pistachios, carrots, tomatoes, and pumpkin seeds for carbs.

I will not go the Gym during this experiment to give my body a chance to handle possible ketosis.

If I get hungry I will wolf down a can of tuna.

Dinner

Same as lunch. I may add home made probiotic sauerkraut during dinner or salad.

After Dinner
70% dark chocolate and half a glass of red wine, non-negotiable

 

[Prefect]

Day 4, I feel depressed, my thighs burn, my heart races as I walk up stairs, constant thirst, and mentally fogged.

I just had a bit of Quinoa hoping to bounce back a little. What is the timeline between unrefined carbs and regaining energy?

I wonder if the extreme I've got to is bad for a skinny guy with no fat reserves who works 9-5 and is a 47 year old single father of a 2 year old.

I don't want to Ketosis, I just want to improve my gut, if in fact it has problems, to help my mood.

It's obvious I don't know what I'm doing.

 

[Basilico]

Treating the gut biome may not solve all your health issues, but it may have a positive effect on some areas that would surprise you.

My husband had a pretty long period of time where his IBS-D was out of control. It was so bad that almost everything he ate triggered it. He couldn't leave the house for months, it was pretty serious. In the beginning, he was obviously reacting to histamine containing and producing foods/drinks, so we thought it was a histamine problem. When he took Histame pills with a histamine food, he could tolerate it. But at some point he started reacting to things that had no histamine connection, even things like white rice. (Yogurt and Kombucha were some of the worst triggers)

He tried an SIBO protocol, took the antibiotics, and he he got worse. Eventually, over time, it kind of went into remission, but he continued to have a super sensitive GI system that could spontaneously erupt with a D attack with the slightest provocation, so he always had to be super careful and on alert for anything that could bother him, and had to be pretty restrictive with food. A little while later, he developed these awful "panic" attacks, he'd wake up in the middle of the night with severe adrenaline bursts, at times so bad that he couldn't breath and we ended up in the emergency room. Doctors couldn't figure it all, he had a million tests done, everything showed him to be the pinnacle of good health (ha!).

Around this time, he started a serious supplementation with Mutaflor (E.Coli Nissile 1917) which is the absolute most interesting probiotic I have ever heard of, and I highly recommend people to research it, because it's fascinating. After starting Mutaflor, his mystery adrenaline attacks completely stopped. His gut also transformed - he no longer reacts to things in general (if he does, it's usually stress-related). His digestive system, while not 100% perfect, is so much better that I almost don't recognize him. Who would have thought his insane adrenaline/panic attacks were gut related? It turns out that not only is the majority of the immune system found in the GI system, but the digestive system has it's own nervous system called the Enteric (or Intrinsic) Nervous System. Even our emotions are largely controlled by the gut! There was a really interesting article about this in Scientific American: https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/gut-second-brain/

The problem with most commercially available probiotics (or even probiotic foods) is that they contain probiotic strains that are transitory and don't colonize the gut. Don't get me wrong, they still have value. But the benefit of strains like E. Coli Nissile 1917, and some others like L. Reuteri or Clostridium Butyricum (Miyarisan) is that they are capable of colonizing the GI system and having a lasting impact. This doesn't mean that once you take a few Mutaflor or Miyarisan you'll have plenty of it in your system forever. You might still need a 'booster' from time to time. But depending on what happens to be going on in your gut, having the right strains in there can make surprisingly positive changes in your overall health.

 

[Learner1]

Day 4, I feel depressed, my thighs burn, my heart races as I walk up stairs, constant thirst, and mentally fogged.

I just had a bit of Quinoa hoping to bounce back a little. What is the timeline between unrefined carbs and regaining energy?

I wonder if the extreme I've got to is bad for a skinny guy with no fat reserves who works 9-5 and is a 47 year old single father of a 2 year old.

I don't want to Ketosis, I just want to improve my gut, if in fact it has problems, to help my mood.

It's obvious I don't know what I'm doing.

Sounds like you went pretty fast from a high carb diet to very low, which can give you the "Keto flu" for a few days before your body adapts to converting fat and protein to glucose.

You might try looking up Paul Jaminet's Perfect Health Diet, which might suit you better, if ketosis isn't your goal.

Personally, my brain fog is better on a ketogenic diet, but I switched from a moderately low carb Paleo to ketogenic, which wasn't as big a deal. My doctor advised me to add caprylic acid (aka C8 oil) to my coffee and use KetoCaNa Keto esters (which I drink before and during any exertion) and I upped flax seed and olive oil on everything, as well as eating the fat on organic meats.

Keep experimenting and you'll find something that works for you!

 

[Learner1]

But the benefit of strains like E. Coli Nissile 1917, and some others like L. Reuteri or Clostridium Butyricum (Miyarisan) is that they are capable of colonizing the GI system and having a lasting impact. This doesn't mean that once you take a few Mutaflor or Miyarisan you'll have plenty of it in your system forever. You might still need a 'booster' from time to time. But depending on what happens to be going on in your gut, having the right strains in there can make surprisingly positive changes in your overall health.

I'm a fan of probiotics and currently looking for a new one to rotate in, as my standby of Xymogen ProbioMax started giving me diarrhea.

I got a sample of VSL#3, which has been somewhat helpful, but learned I can't buy it now, as they recently shifted production to Italy, where they've inexplicably added corn to it, which I'm allergic to.

I was thankful to hear your two suggestions, but found Mutaflor contains corn in the form of maltodextrin. Miyarisan doesn't seem to be sold in the US, other than on eBay, and it seems to have both milk and corn products in it.

Do you know of any other good probiotics that are more allergy friendly? (At the moment, I'm looking at returning to the HLC/Pharmax human strain one or Dr Ohhira's...)

Thanks for sharing your story.

 

[Prefect]

Also look into dirt based probiotics (ie Prescript Assist) and e-coli (Mutaflor - available online in Ontario).

Mutaflor (E.Coli Nissile 1917) which is the absolute most interesting probiotic I have ever heard of, and I highly recommend people to research it,

I keep hearing about this probiotic, it's now the first probiotic I will be ordering.

I'm about to have a comprehensive stool analysis by Genova which I think contains parasites (?). I was going to wait for that result before deciding on a probiotic.

Sounds like you went pretty fast from a high carb diet to very low, which can give you the "Keto flu" for a few days before your body adapts to converting fat and protein to glucos

I've also noticed a bizarre and immediate relation to my carb intake and symptoms.

The last 4 days I was in a bit of a depressive state during which my breathing settled down and moved down to my belly, I had less neurological symptoms, but also felt tired and unmotivated. My limbs were weak.

Yesterday I had quinoa and a bit of rice with dinner, and have been more energized but have more dizziness and strange sensations around my forehead, etc, which I think are signs of overbreathing.

I've begun to think my levels of blood sugar as result of carb intake has direct impact on my state, when lower I'm more docile but have less anxiety symptoms, but when it's higher I'm more energized but like clockwork I get dizzy and lightheaded 2 hours after eating carbs.

I must have some sort of visceral hypersensitivity which could be a result of my SSRI poop out.

I should add, during the last 4 days my stool went back to being dark brown, which I haven't seen since I got sick (20 years). After taking carbs yesterday, it's back to bright yellow, which has been the constant colour during my illness.

 

[Basilico]

I was thankful to hear your two suggestions, but found Mutaflor contains corn in the form of maltodextrin. Miyarisan doesn't seem to be sold in the US, other than on eBay, and it seems to have both milk and corn products in it.

Do you know of any other good probiotics that are more allergy friendly? (At the moment, I'm looking at returning to the HLC/Pharmax human strain one or Dr Ohhira's...)

Thanks for sharing your story.

What a bummer that Miyarisan is no longer available on Amazon - I just checked now, and it is indeed not there anymore. We ordered it on Amazon and it shipped directly from Japan. I'll have to research a little and see if I can find another source for it. At this point, my father in law is the one in the family using Miyarisan. He has chronic constipation, and found that Miyarisan worked wonders for him. Whenever he gets stopped up, he takes Miyarisan and everything normalizes. Unfortunately, it didn't do much for me, but it has such a positive effect for him that I know it's doing something good. We bought a bunch of bottles last year to keep him stocked up. If I find an alternate source for it, I'll let you know.

There is also a monster-long thread here on PR about Clostridium Butyricum (Miyarisan), which is very interesting: http://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?threads/clostridium-butyricum-a-game-changer.37324/

My husband and I do A LOT of fermenting (at least during our "better" moments when we have the energy) - we lactoferment sauerkraut, kombucha, wild yeast sourdough bread, yogurt, we make our own wine and beer and mead, etc... not just for the probiotics but mainly because fermenting not only makes existing nutrients more bioavailable but the action of the bacteria actually creates vitamins as a by-product. Recently, I made a batch of sauerkraut that tasted amazing, but my husband said it didn't smell right (he has an amazing sense of taste and smell while I don't). I didn't listen to him because it tasted so good, and I was being obstinate (I hate throwing things out), so I decided to eat it anyway in my usual stubborn style. I got some GI distress as a result, and it turned out there definitely was something off about that batch. Then, I started reacting to other probiotic things (like kombucha) so I was worried that I'd allowed something bad to colonize.

Since I don't have any Mutaflor on hand, I started taking a probiotic from Nature's Way called "Primadophilus Reuteri Pearls" (I ordered it on Amazon and it was fairly cheap. I'm sure there must be other brands, but this is the only one I've use so far.) and within a few days all my GI distress was gone, and I'm not reacting to kombucha anymore. I was initially worried that the Reuteri wouldn't be aggressive enough to unseat the pathogenic invader, but it seems to have worked well. In addition to E. Coli Nissile 1917, Reuteri is my other favorite probiotic. If you read the research on it, it's amazing and probably one of the most important probiotics for just about everything in the body. For anyone who is having trouble getting Mutaflor (I order it from abroad and it's quite expensive), I'd suggest looking into Reuteri. Even if you don't use it, read about it, it's very cool!

I'm sure you can look up the ingredients for the Nature's Way Reuteri online, but since you mentioned you were allergic to corn, I looked at the ingredients listing and it seems to be pretty good, so unless you have an issue with soy lecithin, these should be allergy friendly. The ingredients listed are: coconut oil, palm oil, fish gelatin (Tilapia), Glycerin, Soy lecithin, Pectin, Silica.

Most of those ingredients are probably for the enteric coating. The Reuteri are in little enteric coated pills because they will get destroyed by stomach acid. Reuteri is found in human breast milk, but infants don't produce stomach acid, so they are able to colonize the GI system without getting destroyed. For adults, the enteric coating is necessary to get the Reuteri where it belongs without getting damaged by the acidic environment. So if you get another brand, just make sure it's enteric coated.

 

[Basilico]

Just thought I'd throw out more suggestions in case anyone else is obsessed with probiotics and looking for some other things to try. I didn't mention these first, because the three that I (or my family members) have had great results with were Mutaflor, Miyarisan, and Reuteri. However, everyone has a different situation in their GI systems, and may have better success with a variety of things. (For example, as I mentioned before, Miyarisan didn't really do much for me, but is a godsend for my FIL. Also, Prescript Assist did nothing for me, but I've read that others seem to like it.) So even though these particular probiotics weren't superstars for me, I thought I'd put them out there in case they could help someone else.

1) Equilibrium (Made in the USA by General Biotics). Other ingredients are: prebiotic (ground flaxseed) and delayed release capsules (plant derived hypromellose). This one has 115 strains that are supposed to be in the human GI system but which are missing from most people in the modern Western world. I ordered directly from their website.

2) SymbioFlor 1 and 2 (made in Germany):
Type 1 is Enterococcus Faecalis (just like E. Coli, there are good strains and bad strains, and this is a 'good' Faecalis strain). It is supposed to be for people with chronic respiratory issues. We were confused as to how a probiotic could be could for something like that, but my husband (who has chronic sinusitis and congestion) took this and his congestion was immediately better. He also got some swelling in his glands, which is why I think he eventually stopped taking it, but I think he might try it again at some point. So there is definitely action on the upper respiratory system (who knew probiotics controlled even THAT?).

Type 2 is targeted for people with IBS (children with GI distress specifically) and I believe that it is supposedly also E. Coli Nissile 17. It was my experience that it wasn't as effective as Mutaflor, but it might work for other people (also cheaper than Mutaflor). Both SymbioFlors have been sold in Germany for about 100 years, and we ordered it online (now I don't remember from where, but if anyone else tries to find a way to order it and can't, I'll see if I can figure out where I sourced it from).

 

[Knockknock]

There seem to be reports nearly weekly about the gut being the origin of many symptoms and illnesses. I suffered my first 8 years of ME w/ no idea that my gut was involved. I finally began healing after I started the GAPS diet, and then went on to detox protocols, probiotics, and getting my biochemistry right w/ supps. My nervous system was an awful mess before I found GAPS, my anxiety unbearable. Within the first 3 days w/o gluten and dairy, I calmed by 50%. Eventually B12 corrected many of my other CNS issues. Keep looking. good luck.

As hippocreates said" all the illnesess biging in the Gut"
Im a strong believer of that, since the gut is directly imvolved in recieving and absorving the nutrients that we need, also in metabolism, most of our immune system is around the gut, or genome has alot to do with the gut.
Yes probably reatoring health in the gut may solve many of our symtomes and disfuntions.
I mean in our case cfs, the diabalance of bacteria may play a direct role in the illness severity, even though i think an other factor is causing this desregulation, most likle the NK cells directly involved, if our immune system dont keep the fire wall preventing bacteria , pathogen pasing to organs and over growing, them we have a mayor issues.
I think the main inmssue is LOW IMMUNITY, the rest if symtoms and severity is just exposure to co infections.
Viruses, bacteria, mycoplasmas... etc
That is why when you keep the right diet away from bad bacteria persecutors like sugar, refine products, gluten etc, we feel better with the right diet and probiotics, that hepls tye issue of the gut, and when we use antivirals we get better to if the issues was viral, ebv, hhv6,cmv etc, sometimes we get better with antibiotics ofcourse using the righ ones, like doxicycline for mycoplaamas etc.
We have a multisytemic illness is not about one thing or another.
"IT IS LOW IMMUNITY, NO IMMUNITY TO FOREING INVADERS PATHOGENS AND BACTERIA INCLUDING OUT OWN GUT BAD BACTERIA"
WHY NO IMMUNNITY???
!!! ILL LET YOU GUYS ANSWERE THAT ONE!!!

 

[Knockknock]

What a bummer that Miyarisan is no longer available on Amazon - I just checked now, and it is indeed not there anymore. We ordered it on Amazon and it shipped directly from Japan. I'll have to research a little and see if I can find another source for it. At this point, my father in law is the one in the family using Miyarisan. He has chronic constipation, and found that Miyarisan worked wonders for him. Whenever he gets stopped up, he takes Miyarisan and everything normalizes. Unfortunately, it didn't do much for me, but it has such a positive effect for him that I know it's doing something good. We bought a bunch of bottles last year to keep him stocked up. If I find an alternate source for it, I'll let you know.

There is also a monster-long thread here on PR about Clostridium Butyricum (Miyarisan), which is very interesting: http://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?threads/clostridium-butyricum-a-game-changer.37324/

My husband and I do A LOT of fermenting (at least during our "better" moments when we have the energy) - we lactoferment sauerkraut, kombucha, wild yeast sourdough bread, yogurt, we make our own wine and beer and mead, etc... not just for the probiotics but mainly because fermenting not only makes existing nutrients more bioavailable but the action of the bacteria actually creates vitamins as a by-product. Recently, I made a batch of sauerkraut that tasted amazing, but my husband said it didn't smell right (he has an amazing sense of taste and smell while I don't). I didn't listen to him because it tasted so good, and I was being obstinate (I hate throwing things out), so I decided to eat it anyway in my usual stubborn style. I got some GI distress as a result, and it turned out there definitely was something off about that batch. Then, I started reacting to other probiotic things (like kombucha) so I was worried that I'd allowed something bad to colonize.

Since I don't have any Mutaflor on hand, I started taking a probiotic from Nature's Way called "Primadophilus Reuteri Pearls" (I ordered it on Amazon and it was fairly cheap. I'm sure there must be other brands, but this is the only one I've use so far.) and within a few days all my GI distress was gone, and I'm not reacting to kombucha anymore. I was initially worried that the Reuteri wouldn't be aggressive enough to unseat the pathogenic invader, but it seems to have worked well. In addition to E. Coli Nissile 1917, Reuteri is my other favorite probiotic. If you read the research on it, it's amazing and probably one of the most important probiotics for just about everything in the body. For anyone who is having trouble getting Mutaflor (I order it from abroad and it's quite expensive), I'd suggest looking into Reuteri. Even if you don't use it, read about it, it's very cool!

I'm sure you can look up the ingredients for the Nature's Way Reuteri online, but since you mentioned you were allergic to corn, I looked at the ingredients listing and it seems to be pretty good, so unless you have an issue with soy lecithin, these should be allergy friendly. The ingredients listed are: coconut oil, palm oil, fish gelatin (Tilapia), Glycerin, Soy lecithin, Pectin, Silica.

Most of those ingredients are probably for the enteric coating. The Reuteri are in little enteric coated pills because they will get destroyed by stomach acid. Reuteri is found in human breast milk, but infants don't produce stomach acid, so they are able to colonize the GI system without getting destroyed. For adults, the enteric coating is necessary to get the Reuteri where it belongs without getting damaged by the acidic environment. So if you get another brand, just make sure it's enteric coated.

Hi bsilico,
So let me understand??? You and your husband both have ME/CFS?? Or me/cfs like symtoms?????