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Alternative to peanut butter?

YippeeKi YOW !!

Senior Member
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16,047
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Second star to the right ...
Actually I don't believe this is true.
@bertiedog @outdamnspot
I respectfully disagree, and I would say that a TV program probably wouldn't be the first place I'd go for uncontestable fact, trustworthy doctors or not.

I tend to err on the side of caution when dealing with anything that could even marginally reduce the QOL for those of us dealing with this disease. And since olive oil’s smoke point is so relatively low, among the lowest of the vegetable oils used in cooking, and any increase above the smoke point increases the potential damage exponentially, I would stick to frying in coconut oil, which has a higher smoke point 350-380 F, or ghee or avocado oils (both of which have extremely high smoke points, around 485 and 520 F, respectively) and would therefore be less likely to produce structural break down in the components of the oil (leading to higher levels of free radicals, aldehydes, and other unappealing toxins) or to increase aldehydes.

Olive oil isn’t any different from other vegetable oils as far as potential damaging chemicals when exposed to high heat. If you heat it above its smoke point, its flavor profile will be degraded and it’ll taste bad and will contain harmful chemicals. Smoke points tend to increase with olive oil quality, as the free fatty acid content tends to decrease and the antioxidant content increases. The high antioxidant content of high-quality olive oil might even reduce the amounts of harmful chemicals produced during cooking, so long as you stay well below the smoke point. But do you want to pay between $25 and $45 (and more) for less than a pint of good olive oil just to risk degrading it by using it for frying?

The temperature of the fat for most shallow frying should be around 375 – 400 F, which exceeds olive oil’s smoke point, which is about 320 degrees, by 15-25%. That’s more than enough to create a thriving circus of aldehydes, free radicals, and poor flavor as the degraded oil would rapidly lose that pleasant olivey taste, along with most, if not all, of its health benefits. :)
 

YippeeKi YOW !!

Senior Member
Messages
16,047
Location
Second star to the right ...
@skwag
I continue to respectfully disagree.

It's a free country, and you're entitled to your beliefs as I am to mine.

Readers can develop their own opinions independently as well.

I'd be more interested in an article from something other than The Daily Mail, which Wikipedia has banned site-wide as a highly, and apparently notoriously, unreliable source, and which many regard as a tabloid and "junk journalism", citing an article that coincidentally was written by the guy who presents Trust Me, I'm A Doctor, the TV show cited by @bertiedog as their source.

I'm too fatigued and PEMy to spend a couple of hours looking thru files for the scientific sources that formed the bulk of the opinions I expressed above, so I guess we'll just have to live and let live, yes?
 

YippeeKi YOW !!

Senior Member
Messages
16,047
Location
Second star to the right ...
@skwag
So you are saying the Daily Mail isn't reliable? Hmmm ;)
You are pulling my leg, yes? Taking the piss out?

Somehow, the wink smilie left me with that definite impression, tho on days like today, I can never be sure. Hard to navigate subtleties with 2 functioning brain cells, one of which keeps demanding chocolate, and the other keeps taking naps.

I forced myself to read the article top to bottom, which rendered both brain cells sullen and comatose, and apparently all the article proved was that cooking with extra virgin olive oil produces fewer toxic chemicals like lipid peroxides and aldehydes and other free radicals than safflower, corn, or other oils, but a lot more than, say, lard.

A search for details of what, and how, exactly, was any of this proven by Prof Grootwhatever's extremely unscientific 'research', beyond vague references to more of this or less of that, or any citations for any of the other claims made in the article, yielded zip. The comments section was interesting, though.

However, in truth, I've long thought that if you can find pure, unprocessed, clean lard, it's not a bad option. It liquifies at room temp, has a hugely high smoke point, and produces a mean little pie crust, among other benefits. And it can't possibly be worse than most all super-heated vegetable oils.

I know because The Daily Mail told me so.

Good Lord, what's happened to me .....arrrrggghhhh. o_Oo_O :lol: (this is the new emoji that looks like it's coming for your jugular .... I think it's supposed to be laughing...... I miss the old emojis)
 
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bertiedog

Senior Member
Messages
1,738
Location
South East England, UK
@YippeeKi YOW !! The programme where they presented the experiment on olive oil and cooking should be considered s a trusted source as they only use scientists from various Universities to perform the tests they present on the programme so I don't see how anybody can argue with that. The programme was presented by Dr Michael Mosley btw and often he will admit he is surprised by some fo the results that they get.

Probably if you did a Google search you might be able to find the evidence that was presented on the programme.

Pam
 

YippeeKi YOW !!

Senior Member
Messages
16,047
Location
Second star to the right ...
@YippeeKi YOW !! The programme where they presented the experiment on olive oil and cooking should be considered s a trusted source as they only use scientists from various Universities to perform the tests they present on the programme so I don't see how anybody can argue with that. The programme was presented by Dr Michael Mosley btw and often he will admit he is surprised by some fo the results that they get.

Probably if you did a Google search you might be able to find the evidence that was presented on the programme.

Pam
@bertiedog

I read the article by Dr Michael Mosley, based on the BBC show, top to bottom. There were NO scientists mentioned, although it did refer to one professor (see below), and the tests were extremely unscientific in their methods, consisting of giving several volunteers different vegetable oils (sunflower oil, vegetable oil, corn oil, cold-pressed rapeseed oil, olive oil (refined and extra virgin), butter, goose fat and lard) and asking them to cook with them and turn over the used oil to De Monfort Univ in Leicester , where Professor Grootveld, professor of bio-analytical chemistry and chemical pathology, and a group of lab assistants analyzed the results.

Here are the final results of the testing:

"Not only that, but Professor Grootveld's team also identified two previously unknown aldehydes in the samples of these oils - a world first and cause of some excitement for scientists, but bad news for consumers. Put simply, cooking with these oils is producing even more toxic compounds than has ever before been realised. In contrast, the olive oil and cold-pressed rapeseed oil produced far fewer aldehydes, as did butter and goose fat. The reason being that these fats are richer in monounsatured and saturated fats, and are much more stable when heated.

'Far lower levels of toxic compounds were generated by these oils and the compounds that were are actually less threatening to the human body,' says the professor. And as one in the eye for those who have eschewed old-fashioned fats, his research also suggests that when it comes to cooking, frying in animal fats may be preferable to sunflower or corn oil."

Please note that nowhere does this report state that cooking at high temps with even extra virgin olive oil produces NO toxic chemicals, but rather, states that extra virgin olive oil, along with cold-pressed rapeseed oil, butter, and goose fat produces far fewer toxic chemicals.

So if you're willing to take the risk of cumulative damage from cooking with less toxic oils, then cooking with vegetable oils heated to levels high enough to fry something would be fine.

Having fought thru cancer, and now this crippling illness, that's a chance I'm not willing to take.

You pays your money, you takes your chances.

Regarding Dr. Michael Mosley

Dr. Michal Mosley studied philosophy, politics, and economics at New College, Oxford, after which he went to work as a banker in London. He then decided to move into medicine with the intention of becoming a psychiatrist, studying at the Royal Free Hospital Medical School, now part of UCL Medical School.

Upon graduation, having become disillusioned by psychiatry, Mosley joined a trainee assistant producer scheme at the BBC in 1985, after which he went on to produce several science shows, then becoming a presenter.

I’m unclear what doctorate program qualified Dr. Mosely to use that honorific. If it was his studies in psychiatry, it should be noted that, to the best of most knowledge, he NEVER practiced as a doctor, nor passed any board certification exams that would allow him to do so.

None of this makes Dr. Mosley a scientist, any more than writing this response to you makes me one.
 
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outdamnspot

Senior Member
Messages
924
Might sound like an odd question, but if anyone has some insight, I'd appreciate it. I've been doing all my cooking on a cast iron pan that I share with my family. They don't pay much mind to my sensitivities, and I do believe they clean it with dishwashing liquid. As a precaution, I sterilize it with boiling water before each use, and since Christmas, I have been cooking all of my meat and fish on cooking paper and/or wrapped in tinfoil, in the oven (since I don't use oil).

Last night, I decided to try 'sear' my steak to finish it off, directly on the pan. The result was meat that tasted very 'soapy'. This was actually a big issue I had around Christmas when I was cooking a lot of meat and eggs on the pan, but I forgot about it once I started using cooking paper.

What I was wondering is, would the taste/residue mean I am actually ingesting some soap? Just trying to account for why I feel so odd and hungover today .. I won't cook anything directly on the pan, and should invest in my own when I can afford it, but still curious. @YippeeKi YOW !! any idea?
 

YippeeKi YOW !!

Senior Member
Messages
16,047
Location
Second star to the right ...
would the taste/residue mean I am actually ingesting some soap?
@outdamnspot
I think that rule #1 in everything I've ever read about cast iron pans is NEVER USE DISHWASHING LIQUID TO CLEAN THEM ..... EVER ..... NEVER EVER EVER ..... it's death for the pan in sooooo many ways.

But whether or not you're actually ingesting left-over dish soap as opposed to the lingering, unpleasant ghost presence of its taste is hard to say. It's not an impossibility, cast iron can be porous especially if it's been cared for poorly, as it seems it has, and the heat may hvae released the remnants of its last scrubbing.

But your sensitivities are so pronounced that it wouldn't surprize me if you were reacting to even a ghost-breath of the leftover liquid. It makes me sad that you have to depend on such a ..... ummmm..... hmmmm ...... ahhhhh ........ relatively cavalier set of family-member housemates, and that they'd mistreat both you and a perfectly good cast iron skillet with no clue that they were being clottish.

Try this: before you use it next, give it a good scrubbing with some wadded up aluminum foil. Yes. Aluminum foil. And if it's really bad, add some salt as well. Don't use anything else. If you use water, dry the pan completely before putting away or using. That should do the trick, depending on how deeply damaged it is. WHen you're thru using it yourself, do the same thing. Maybe give it a good quick rinse with very hot water to get most of the fat out, then give it a quick dry, scrub it down with the foil and make sure it's really dry (you might oil it lightly and set it on a low-flame burner briefly to make sure all the water is gone and to sort of season it) before putting it up for the night. Preferably in some dark, out-of-the-way corner someplace hard to find.

You have quite a load there, outdamnspot, but just keep focusing on the fact that it's temporary, and you'll be able to get out from under all that soon. Even if you don;t believe that's possible ...... keep the door open a crack for a tiny miracle, yes? And keep your attention and focus on that tiny miracle. :hug::thumbsup:
 

outdamnspot

Senior Member
Messages
924
@YippeeKi YOW !! thanks a lot for the quick response. I may have to concede that yesterday's reaction was a 'placebo effect' since I managed to avoid the soapy taste before bed (using aluminium foil etc.) and feel just as bad today ... so that's something :/ but I'm glad I asked, because the pan-cleaning tips came in handy :)

I've been putting off trying antibiotics to see if they improve my food issues (prescribed for a sinus infection originally) but it might be time ..
 

YippeeKi YOW !!

Senior Member
Messages
16,047
Location
Second star to the right ...
@outdamnspot
Could you be reacting to the increased iron when using the iron skillet? Or left-over food particles triggering a histamine reaction?

As far as antibiotics, I'm the wrong person to respond to this. In my biased opinion, the damage they do far outweighs their benefit except in the most extreme, almost life-or-death cases, so I'd really think twice about using them except as a last-ditch, well-researched effort. Other than killing off all your beneficial bicrobiota, I'm not sure what they're able to do for food sensitivities.


Glad the pan cleaning stuff came in handy, but remember it only works on cast iron. Anything else, all bets are off re potential damages. o_O......here's the new Living Dead smilie, God knows what he's up to but I'm betting it isn't good news ,,,,,
 

outdamnspot

Senior Member
Messages
924
@YippeeKi YOW !! It could be the iron, but I did catch my mom soaking it in dishwashing liquid yesterday, so who knows.

I was wondering if you could help me with something else. I've been having this strange craving for liver, even though I've never tried it, so bought 1kg of veal liver yesterday. I read that it should be seared for only a few minutes each side or loses its nutritional benefits. I can't cook directly on the pan due to the weird soap issue, and can't use cooking oils or tallow anyway due to intolerances. Hence I tend to cook all my meat in the oven, wrapped in foil.

Do you think it would be worth trying to cook the liver in the oven? The other thing that works to bypass the oil issue is laying down cooking paper before placing it on the stove top but that wouldn't really be searing or flash frying. I just have no idea what the appearance should be like when it's done so was thinking thin strips in the oven.
 

YippeeKi YOW !!

Senior Member
Messages
16,047
Location
Second star to the right ...
@outdamnspot
I hate liver, so I have no experience with cooking it. It's my understanding that it should be cooked like a rare or med rare steak, but beyond that I couldn't say. Sorry to come up empty on this. I take my liver in capsules from the antibiotic and hormone free New Zealand herds. If I bury it in about 4 oz's of Lakewood Super Veggie juice (tomato juice would probably do it, to) and gulp it down quickly, there's almost no liver taste.

I don't think the med-rare cooking would destroy much, if any, of its nutritional value. It's cooking it to shoe leather that would alter it, though I'm not sure to what degree. And cooking it on what I assume is parchment paper would be just fine. You can get a decent sear even with the paper.

If you're craving liver, you might check out the nutritional profile to see what it is your body might be needing. It's high in iron, B vits, BCAAs, other things I can't bring to mind right now and am too tired to look up.

Keep up the good fight, outdamnspot, you're a brave soldier and I know it's going to pay off for you. Chin up.
 

Hope4

Desert of SW USA
Messages
473
@outdamnspot Did you cook the liver? If so, how did it taste? I can't imagine how liver would taste when cooked without fat. Do you avoid tallow because of amines? I render my own, so that the amines are lower than even what I can get from the local tallow makers.

I have eaten raw beef suet (fat from the kidneys) and liked it. It has a grainy texture, for a fat, and spreads easily.