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alcohol helps me?

Prefect

Senior Member
Messages
307
Location
Canada
So I just ate a an amazing dinner, felt like crap after it, consumed a ridiculous amount of whiskey and tobacco to "correct" the problem, and now my limbs no longer feel weak, I can interact on this site and no longer have the "tired but wired" feeling. My night has fully turned around. Who can explain this to me? And I maintain leave doctors out of it, since modern medicine has been too impotent to address the issue even though the problem has been around for ages and called "neurasthenia/ neurocirculatory asthenia" since the dinosaurs. other than Dr Goldstein we're on our own. I wish he hadn't retired. I wish I could visit him as a patient.
 
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sb4

Senior Member
Messages
1,654
Location
United Kingdom
@Prefect You say you felt like crap after eating but booze fixed it?

I would take a wild guess at two reasons. Maybe your body has problems utilizing the carbs in the meal for energy thanks to poor PDH function and the alcohol fixes this by providing acetate/etc which are burned preferentially making up for the shortfall in energy from glucose.

Maybe the meal causes pots symptoms to worsen due to blood flow issues with digestion and alcohol somehow corrects the ANS for you. Or maybe it is something else entirely.
 

Dufresne

almost there...
Messages
1,039
Location
Laurentians, Quebec
They are mentioned in the attachment you posted

Ah, I see it. Who knows what he meant by this. Notice the box that contains alcohol is called benzodiazepines^; and most of these substances are not benzodiazepines. I believe he's suggesting there's a pathway in the limbic system that can best be described as a "benzodiazepine" pathway. Similarly "dopamine drops" may not actually be dopamine drops. In another chart I've posted elsewhere he refers to this channel as just "dopamine" as you can see below. Creative thinkers of this sort can sometimes make up their own language and shorthand. :)

1585462738577.png


A few years ago when I was trying to figure out the dopamine/reward component of my illness I tried levodopa and then mucuna pruriens. The idea was to demand less of BH4 and perhaps end up with higher dopamine levels in the brain. Mucuna pruriens is a bean that apparently raises l-dopa levels faster than levodopa and with fewer side effects. Neither of them did anything for me. Further experiments on my part have convinced me the problem is not one of dopamine shortage but of dopamine activity. And I'm convinced this is due to the basal ganglia getting hit by interferon inflammation within an oxidized terrain.

Anyone interested in a basal ganglia/reward system explanation for the disease in some of us might want to check out the articles Cort wrote in 2014 over on Health Rising. The first of which is the following:

https://www.healthrising.org/blog/2...nflammation-fatigue-chronic-fatigue-syndrome/

Also there's still some interest in this field as can be seen in this article:
http://simmaronresearch.com/2018/12/immune-factor-jump-start-chronic-fatigue-syndrome-me/
 

Prefect

Senior Member
Messages
307
Location
Canada
Alcohol as far as I am aware is turned into ketones, these ketones would provide energy and bypass and problems in glucose metabolism (PDH?). Do those who have found alcohol to help also find low carb helps?

Indeed I came up with an idea that alcohol could help me tolerate carbs better but after trying one shot it felt like my entire nervous system was fried and I had a killer headache the next day. Perhaps this is because I hadn't drunk anything alcoholic in 7yrs and my body needs to get used to it, but I think it is more likely that my body cannot tolerate it anymore.
So it happened agin. I had a delicious meal but felt sluggish after it but was too restless to have a nap. I tried to watch a show on netflix but couldn't concentrate. So I consumed close to half a litre of whiskey (have to pace myself or I'll barf) and lots of tobacco and I'm suddenly back to normal. There has to be a mechanism here at work. I find consuming sauerkraut through out the day helps with cravings but WHAT IS GOING ON HERE?!
 

Dufresne

almost there...
Messages
1,039
Location
Laurentians, Quebec
So it happened agin. I had a delicious meal but felt sluggish after it but was too restless to have a nap. I tried to watch a show on netflix but couldn't concentrate. So I consumed close to half a litre of whiskey (have to pace myself or I'll barf) and lots of tobacco and I'm suddenly back to normal. There has to be a mechanism here at work. I find consuming sauerkraut through out the day helps with cravings but WHAT IS GOING ON HERE?!

That thing where one feels a whole lot worse within a few minutes of eating is MCAS. Mast cells in the limbic system follow the lead of what's happening in the body. This results in inflammation that impacts the reward system. Alcohol can remedy this from a few different angles: NMDA antagonism, as well as the upregulation of GABA, dopamine, endorphins, etc. The dopamine being the most important.

Dr Goldstein believed there were several paths that led to limbic dysfunction. And Dr Andrew Miller who's done a lot of good work in the area of the basal ganglia (reward system) similarly suggests it's not everybody with ME/CFS that is being negatively impacted in this region, but there is a subset for whom this is an issue. Interferon is an integral part of the equation, but it's believed that lactate, altered pH, and possibly IL6 factor in as well. I'm suggesting mast cells are key in altering the terrain and setting this up.
 

Prefect

Senior Member
Messages
307
Location
Canada
ted in this region, but there is a subset for whom this is an issue. Interferon is an integral part of the equation, but it's believed that lactate, altered pH, and possibly IL6 factor in as well.
I feel well all day when my anion gap is through the roof. I have to look into altered PH. You're right. But at the end of the day when I have a satisfying ordinary meal I become undone. Dr Goldstein should be back at work again. I don't think I could make sense of any of this without him lol.
 

Marylib

Senior Member
Messages
1,155
@Prefect Same thing happened to me, in the sense that I discovered ethanol made me feel better for a time. I didn't understand it, but a friend who is a biochemist explained it to me. At the time, I was really sick, I had no appetite, and I was unable to eat much. So it was keeping me alive with a form of sugar that went straight to the brain. But alcohol is a neurotoxin, so I don't drink alcohol at all any more, and I have not been much of a drinker at all over the course of my life. I prefer a clear head. A friend of mine with a brain injury said she is one of those people who feels stone cold sober when everyone else is having a tequila party. Sometimes I think I should have a little red wine every day like my grandmother did, but I think you can get the same nutrition from fruit, and I have no problem with putting sugar in coffee, etc. - or having some coca cola now and then. Having small quantities of food frequently works much better for me than meals. There is some research to support eating carbs at night helps with sleep. That would be the orexin connection and the hypothalamus.
 
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Booble

Senior Member
Messages
1,390
I wonder if the relaxation and reduction of thinking/worry/fear also helps adds a little boost of comfort?
 

Prefect

Senior Member
Messages
307
Location
Canada
@sb4 a few things to add. My main symptoms are autism like sensory agitation (lights, sounds bother me, when I can manage to concentrate I get agitated, task switching problems, having long conversations make me exhausted, but I don't have autism, it doesn't set in at 47) but I don't have body fatigue like CFS/ME.

What I've noticed about alcohol is that it's an all or nothing game. I can either consume ethanol or eat. If I do both I get into an initial state of euphoria that then turns into over activation, I get palpitations, can't sleep, have to get up and vomit (sorry if this is too much info) and consume more ethanol and get my body back into a semi-starvation mode to calm it down. My palpitations subside, I get calmer, I get back into an almost inert "flow", and then I can go to sleep. So if I want to use ethanol I have to starve and that's obviously not an option.

From previous posts I've noticed you take Remeron. That drug does wonders for my sleep, 15 mg I'm out cold for 8 hrs at least. But once I wake up in the morning the nightmare begins again. I wish I could find a drug I could augment for daytime symptoms and keep taking Remeron just for sleep. I've been seeing Lyrica mentioned on this thread, not sure how it mixes with Remeron?...
 

sb4

Senior Member
Messages
1,654
Location
United Kingdom
@Prefect That is interesting though I don't know I can be of much help. All I could think of is that alcohol allows you to run on ketones and perhaps eating food on top of this disrupts the process. Or alcohol is modulating your nervous/immune system in some way.

Perhaps the steady flow of alcohol digestion throughout the day is less dysruptive than big meals periodically in terms of POTS?
 

sb4

Senior Member
Messages
1,654
Location
United Kingdom
@Prefect Not really. I experiment with different things. I take B1 with carbs that helps take a bit of the edge off.

Mirtazapine helped me before, albeit with side effects, can't say how much it is helping now as I would have to stop using it but then I would have to go through withdrawal just to see if I need it or not which is not worth it for me so for now I keep taking it.
 

EddieB

Senior Member
Messages
604
Location
Northern southern California
I would have to go through withdrawal just to see if I need it or not which is not worth it for me so for now I keep taking it.
I’m in the process of tapering off mirtazapine for that very reason. I couldn’t tell if I just felt worse or if it was making me feel worse. The withdrawals are further confusing the issue, so it will be while before I know anything.

But of the subject of alcohol, it is a GABA agonist. I have a couple questions for those that find alcohol helps...
1. Has anyone tried other means to increase GABA?
2. Do you also suffer from anxiety or panic attacks?

Discussion on another thread, https://forums.phoenixrising.me/posts/2269392/, I think there is a connection here.
 

kurt

Senior Member
Messages
1,186
Location
USA
But of the subject of alcohol, it is a GABA agonist. I have a couple questions for those that find alcohol helps...
1. Has anyone tried other means to increase GABA?
2. Do you also suffer from anxiety or panic attacks?
I just found this thread and was about to say the same thing. Especially if Whiskey works, as that has no sugar, so would not be causing glucose swing issues that derail so many of us. He is boosting GABA activity (part of the effect, Alcohol binds to GABA receptors). There are many other ways to approach this besides alcohol. Relora, for example, boosts GABA production, that may be worth experimenting with. Or just taking sublingual GABA (GABA Calm works well for some, for example). Although be careful not to swallow GABA as it feeds Candida.

Speaking of Candida, I believe there is often a Candida connection to ME/CFS when anxiety is involved, as Candida can cause anxiety/panic issues (proven in mouse models anyway). So Candida may be another issue involved if alcohol improves anxiety/panic symptoms. I'm actually writing a blog about Candida in ME/CFS right now in the 'Blogs' part of this website (on complex fungal intolerance in ME/CFS), not about the alcohol connection, but that does connect well with what I have been finding in my study of Candida, if Candida is causing the problem the alcohol is addressing.
 
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Rufous McKinney

Senior Member
Messages
13,249
I'm actually writing a blog about Candida in ME/CFS right now in the 'Blogs' part of this website (on complex fungal intolerance in ME/CFS)

Are there any science based studies regarding the existence of candida as a pathogen inside the body? I"ve not been able to locate any...so far...looking into that topic.
 

EddieB

Senior Member
Messages
604
Location
Northern southern California
Are there any science based studies regarding the existence of candida as a pathogen inside the body? I"ve not been able to locate any...so far...looking into that topic.
There’s a lot of information out there, I’ve looked into it quite a bit over the years, I was convinced at one time it was all my problems. Testing is available, but a lot of quackery too, be careful. Genova Labs would be one reliable test source, may be others.
 

EddieB

Senior Member
Messages
604
Location
Northern southern California
Relora, for example, boosts GABA production, that may be worth experimenting with. Or just taking sublingual GABA
Have you used these? Any suggestions of doses?
Although I’d rather stay away from meds, I’m afraid I’m going to need something more potent to get me out of this hole.
 
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kurt

Senior Member
Messages
1,186
Location
USA
Are there any science based studies regarding the existence of candida as a pathogen inside the body? I"ve not been able to locate any...so far...looking into that topic.
Not sure what you mean, Candida can be a fatal infection, and is often part of the end stage infections in immune compromised patients. ME/CFS includes immune problems. Candida can exist in yeast or mold type forms, and has a complex metabolism and can produce at least 69 mycotoxins. Yes, there are countless studies on Candida including many focusing on it as a pathogen. Candida can be very hard to treat once it starts becoming a problem, many people give up and just try to live with it. Also, even when it is not overgrowing, Candida can metabolize certain nutrients and create toxic alcohols. I'm discussing this and having success right now using enzymes that break down the Candida cell wall (and am discussing that in the 'Blogs' section here).