alcohol helps me?

[ellie84]

Have you tried LYRICA (pregabalin)? I am the same way in that drinking hard liquor (not beer) improves my brain fog and energy levels. Lyrica actually gives me a VERY similar feeling (feel intoxicated without being sloppy), and it's the med that's helped the most for me. My memory is sharper and my attention-span, verbal fluency, and ability to absorb information improves greatly (just like on alcohol). I've tried so many meds (SSRI, SNRI, stimulants, POTS medication, LDN, etc.) and nothing helps me more than alcohol or lyrica (not together, of course). I'm wondering if you might be in the same boat as me? I find it strange that more people aren't talking about lyrica on this forum...

How much Lyrica do you take? I take it for pudendal neuropathy and so far it has had no effects of any kind, but I'm on a low dosage (100mg) and it will be probably changed.

Alcohol as far as I am aware is turned into ketones, these ketones would provide energy and bypass and problems in glucose metabolism (PDH?). Do those who have found alcohol to help also find low carb helps?

Indeed I came up with an idea that alcohol could help me tolerate carbs better but after trying one shot it felt like my entire nervous system was fried and I had a killer headache the next day. Perhaps this is because I hadn't drunk anything alcoholic in 7yrs and my body needs to get used to it, but I think it is more likely that my body cannot tolerate it anymore.

For me alcohol does worse if anything, I had bad reactions 2 times since being ill.
One evening I drank a spritz fasting and the next morning I woke up sweating with acetone smell. I have impaired glucose tolerance and reactive hypoglycemia, so I guess it has something to do with it (perhaps I had hypoglycemia during the night and went into ketosis?!).
The other time I drank a few drinks (not fasting, I avoid that now) and the next day I had a strong feeling of rectal pressure all day, something I have once in a while.
Also now I have troubles tolerating the strong diuretic effect it has on me, since now I have urinary issues.
Apart from that I think alcohol has the same effects on me it always had (being merrier etc.), I have a pretty high alcohol tolerance, could never get really drunk.
But then again, I think we all have different causes to our symptoms...

I read that ketogenic diet lowers alcohol tolerance, so you get intoxicated more easily... the more carbohydrates in your body the more you can tolerate alcohol. So I don't know about a drug that could have the same effect as alcohol for you, but maybe look into your diet?

 

[Frunobulax]

it is so weird but I've noticed that drinking moderate amounts of alcohol helps my symptoms. what can I take out of it?
[...]
Wish there was a drug I could take that brings me the same benefit without being drunk and damaging my liver etc. Is there any?

There may be: Go to a ketogenic diet. Alcohol is metabolized very differently from glucose, which is the main fuel in a western diet. There are many studies that ME/CFS victims have an issue with glucose metabolism, so any alternative fuel source might improve symptoms.

There are several threads about Keto here.

Pure fructose might have the same effect as alcohol, but it does have the same long-term drawbacks (fatty liver, metabolic syndrom - talk by Robert Lustig).

For a short energy boost try MCT oil. It is converted quickly to ketones in the liver. (Careful, start with a teaspoon. Some people get diarrhea from too much MCT oil, apparently the body needs to get used to it.) Coconut oil also contains some MCT, but it's high in histamine so MCT is better (albeit more expensive).

 

[Frunobulax]

Alcohol as far as I am aware is turned into ketones, these ketones would provide energy and bypass and problems in glucose metabolism (PDH?).

No ketones. Some part of the ethanol is metabolized in the mitochondria (about 20% I think) which might be responsible for the energy boost, but the rest is turned to triglycerides via the liver. So yes, eventually it becomes fat and ketones, but the triglyceride part is (I think) not different from glucose turned triglycerides.

I agree with the rest (try keto). See my post above

 

[sb4]

No ketones. Some part of the ethanol is metabolized in the mitochondria (about 20% I think) which might be responsible for the energy boost, but the rest is turned to triglycerides via the liver. So yes, eventually it becomes fat and ketones, but the triglyceride part is (I think) not different from glucose turned triglycerides.

I agree with the rest (try keto). See my post above

Ok perhaps you can help clear this up for me.

Is only 20% going through this pathway. Or is 80% of Acetate getting turned into triglycerides?

Also how does this explain alcoholic ketoacidosis?

 

[Prefect]

I've had alcoholic ketoacidosis. At least 10 times over the last year. Once I'm detoxed, after 2-3 weeks of abstinence my symptoms progressively get worse while ordinary alcoholics get better. I can't fathom this for the life of me. My anion gap goes through the roof after my binges. Once it settles I'm a basket case.

 

[Strawberry]

@Anetta I'm another alcohol responder, although in my case it is cheap wine, not beer. I state cheap wine (Franzia/boxed wine) as I think it is a young (which makes it cheap) wine and probably has lower histamine than more expensive bottled wine that is aged longer. It is the ONLY way I am able to get laundry and/or cooking for a week done at all. I don't drink during the week. I can't drink bottled wine as it congests my nose. I also water it down 50/50 like you do with apple juice for toddlers. So even though hops might be part, it can't be all of it.

I like the idea on Lyrica helping some people here, so I am curious also as to how much, and how quickly it works. Is that something that must be taken daily? Or could I take one Friday night or Saturday morning, and get energy to do laundry? What mg?

@Prefect I'm so sorry to hear this has become such a problem for you. I remember when you posted that thread, and I may have even posted in it. Yes, it has been a HUGE challenge to not let it get out of control. Wine has been my ONLY medicine for 15 years, and it was even doctor approved! That just should NOT be right, but when it helps us, it is so hard to not use/abuse it hoping for that much more energy. I wish you the best of luck!

 

[sb4]

@Prefect Are you using alcohol to help with symptoms and are you drinking enough to get in alcoholic ketoacidosis on its own or is it a complication of this disease?

It's been mentioned before but if you are not taking B1 I would recomend it. I have no reason to have thiamine deficiency but I notice it helps particularly with post carb symptoms.

 

[laxative_mess]

How much Lyrica do you take? I take it for pudendal neuropathy and so far it has had no effects of any kind, but I'm on a low dosage (100mg) and it will be probably changed.



For me alcohol does worse if anything, I had bad reactions 2 times since being ill.
One evening I drank a spritz fasting and the next morning I woke up sweating with acetone smell. I have impaired glucose tolerance and reactive hypoglycemia, so I guess it has something to do with it (perhaps I had hypoglycemia during the night and went into ketosis?!).
The other time I drank a few drinks (not fasting, I avoid that now) and the next day I had a strong feeling of rectal pressure all day, something I have once in a while.
Also now I have troubles tolerating the strong diuretic effect it has on me, since now I have urinary issues.
Apart from that I think alcohol has the same effects on me it always had (being merrier etc.), I have a pretty high alcohol tolerance, could never get really drunk.
But then again, I think we all have different causes to our symptoms...

I read that ketogenic diet lowers alcohol tolerance, so you get intoxicated more easily... the more carbohydrates in your body the more you can tolerate alcohol. So I don't know about a drug that could have the same effect as alcohol for you, but maybe look into your diet?

I feel that you and I are in different subgroups of ME/CFS...
I also take 100mg (50mg morning, 50mg night), but it works wonders for me (though only lasts a couple of hours each time). When I drink alcohol, it again does wonders for me (though it lasts only a couple of hours). Since alcohol also seems to help the OP, I was wondering if lyrica may also help him/her.

For me, you will know if lyrica works or not very quickly. I noticed a huge difference within a matter of hours/days. It gives you a "drunk" feeling. And it's not like antidepressants which take weeks before it kicks in (honestly, I've never felt a difference with antidepressants).

Just to add, I also have a positive skin biopsy for small fiber neuropathy. Interestingly, the lyrica is also used in neuropathic pain and is used to relieve neuropathy. Rather than the increased blood flow mechanism, I wonder if lyrica is helping me via the GABA mechanism (calming overactive nerves). Alcohol, too, works on GABA as well.

Again, I am sure not everyone on this thread has the same illness. Though we all share the same symptoms, I doubt the cause is the same.

 

[laxative_mess]

@Anetta
I like the idea on Lyrica helping some people here, so I am curious also as to how much, and how quickly it works. Is that something that must be taken daily? Or could I take one Friday night or Saturday morning, and get energy to do laundry? What mg?

Lyrica acts very quickly and lasts for a couple of hours. It's not like antidepressants which take weeks/months to kick in. It's more like tylenol, which you'll feel within an hour and it lasts for a couple of hours. I can usually feel the effects of lyrica within an hour or two, and it gives a drunk feeling, except it's cleaner than the alcohol drunkenness. I find all of my pain disappears and I can think quicker and speak better. I can actually read books and comprehend what I'm reading in that short couple-hour window. However, tolerance is a big issue. I take drug holidays in order to reset my tolerance. Otherwise, the same dose won't have any effect and you'll have to keep taking more and more to get the same effect. I can build tolerance within days (!!) so beware.

In addition, when I stop taking lyrica, I feel the pain return harder due to withdrawal. Honestly, I'm unsure which is worse (lyrica or alcohol) because both can be highly addictive. It, along with gabapentin, became categorized as a scheduled drug recently.

 

[Frunobulax]

Ok perhaps you can help clear this up for me.

Is only 20% going through this pathway. Or is 80% of Acetate getting turned into triglycerides?

Also how does this explain alcoholic ketoacidosis?

Where is that KA picture from?

KA happens only if some metabolic signalling is really out of whack, for example diabetics that are not well adjusted in their medication. Bottom line, for this you'll need high insulin levels and depleted glycogen stores, something that never happens for healthy people (where glycogen stores are replenished if they eat carbs) or people on low carb (where insulin is always low). Alcoholic KA is a bit of a mystery, but I never dug too deep into that because it doesn't concern me personally. I remember googling it a while ago, and there seemed to be very few models for AKA (and I think there are some rare cases of KA for pregnant women too where experts seem to have no idea why this happens).

I would question your picture. It shows simply what happens if people eat little or no glucose, that is a ketogenic diet. And ketoacidosis is not a side effect of this. (Virta reports that they have treated thousands of diabetics with keto diet and had not a single case of ketoacidosis.) If you eat no carbs (-> glycogen depletion) then insulin will be very low, hence no KA. Glycogen depletion and low insulin activates ketone generation in a healthy way, people in nutritional ketosis have nowhere near the ketone levels of KA.

The metabolism picture is very much oversimplified, it seems to show only the part that goes to the mitochondria. The correct one is in https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23493539:

If you want to know the details, Lustig explains it much better than I could in the talk that I linked (along with the metabolism of Fructose and Glucose).

 

[sb4]

@Frunobulax Indeed alcohol has many effects other than increasing acetate however this increase in acetate could, at least in part, explain why some people with CFS get better with alcohol (assuming a block in glucose metabolism / PDH).

If you google alcoholic ketoacidosis there are many links to studies etc so alcohol does seem to be increasing ketones, and if you drink a lot it does it so much you go into ketoacidosis. Like you say, this wouldn't happen with a healthy person even if they are starving, so it makes sense to me that it is happening because the body is trying to get rid of excess ethanol by turning it into acetate.

 

[ellie84]

I feel that you and I are in different subgroups of ME/CFS...
I also take 100mg (50mg morning, 50mg night), but it works wonders for me (though only lasts a couple of hours each time). When I drink alcohol, it again does wonders for me (though it lasts only a couple of hours). Since alcohol also seems to help the OP, I was wondering if lyrica may also help him/her.

For me, you will know if lyrica works or not very quickly. I noticed a huge difference within a matter of hours/days. It gives you a "drunk" feeling. And it's not like antidepressants which take weeks before it kicks in (honestly, I've never felt a difference with antidepressants).

Just to add, I also have a positive skin biopsy for small fiber neuropathy. Interestingly, the lyrica is also used in neuropathic pain and is used to relieve neuropathy. Rather than the increased blood flow mechanism, I wonder if lyrica is helping me via the GABA mechanism (calming overactive nerves). Alcohol, too, works on GABA as well.

Again, I am sure not everyone on this thread has the same illness. Though we all share the same symptoms, I doubt the cause is the same.

Yes, as I said I think we all have different causes to our symptoms and I do take Lyrica for pudendal neuropathy. As far as I know, for neuropathic pain it takes a long time before seeing effects, the nerves are slow to heal, if they heal at all.
Lyrica is used for epilepsy, neuropathic pain and generalized anxiety disorder. It's also used as a mood stabilizer in bipolar disorder, schizoaffective disorder etc. Maybe it's its antianxiety and mood stabilizing effects that work for you? (I'm not saying cfs is psychological, I don't believe that)
However it's a pretty strong drug, you cannot interrupt it abruptly, you cannot take it as needed (tolerance, addiction, withdrawal...), it can interact even severely with other drugs, you cannot drink alcohol, it can alter driving skills, it has an endless list of potential side effects etc. I don't know either between alcohol and Lyrica. Maybe Lyrica if you take it under strict medical supervision.

 

[Frunobulax]

@Frunobulax
If you google alcoholic ketoacidosis there are many links to studies etc so alcohol does seem to be increasing ketones, and if you drink a lot it does it so much you go into ketoacidosis.

No, that's not true. If this was the case, heavy drinkers would go to AKA on a regular basis, but they don't.

This study shows that people don't go into AKA right away, only after a stretch of weeks heavy drinking. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/5456793/Thus, the problem is not ketones from alcohol, but some other metabolic damage. Not sure about acetate, I think we can metabolize it but the preferred fuel are other ketones from beta oxidation (BHB).

In fact, ethanol usually is a ketone production inhibitor.

 

[sb4]

@Frunobulax I was thinking the liver would be seeing lots of acetylCoA due to excess acetate and not much oxaloacetate thanks to minimal pyruvate, this is the signal for the liver to start producing ketones. Indeed I found this image showing it though the resolution is poor:

Perhaps ethanol is inhibiting ketone from being produced in places other than the liver as it already has too much, or specifically inhibiting ketone production from fats. Either way, it seems to me that since ethanol is detoxified into acetate and then acetyl CoA, the liver has to do something with this excess energy and that is produce ketones.

As for chronic alcoholics, perhaps the liver has made some adaptions to compensate for lots of acetate.

 

[Frunobulax]

@Frunobulax I was thinking the liver would be seeing lots of acetylCoA due to excess acetate and not much oxaloacetate thanks to minimal pyruvate, this is the signal for the liver to start producing ketones.

But this is true even if someone drinks a lot of alcohol once.
AKA is rare and starts only after a long time of heavy regular consumption. Thus, it's very unlikely that a direct metabolite of alcohol causes this. It has to be some form of metabolic damage/adaption that throws off the signalling. Probably a combination of several factors, fatty liver/pancreas (that is automatic for alcoholics) and perhaps damage due to the toxicity of ethanol.

But I guess AKA is simply not too relevant here. After all, there is a established connection why there should be an energy boost from ethanol (availability of Acetyl-CoA that isn't produced by PDK) that doesn't involve additional ketones.

 

[Anetta]

could it be that alcohol, beer in particular, acts like a diuretic and that's why I respond well to it? Cause I do well on Diamox too.....
makes me think of hypertension issues

 

[Frunobulax]

could it be that alcohol, beer in particular, acts like a diuretic and that's why I respond well to it? Cause I do well on Diamox too.....
makes me think of hypertension issues

Not enough information
#1 check for metabolic syndrome, which causes kidney issues and hypertension. If that's ruled out, proceed to
#2 check for heavy metals, lead especially, because this will impede kidney function too.
#3 if the above are ruled out, Diamox has several functions. Try to find out which ones are the helpful ones.

A diuretic helping with ME/CFS would be news to me, but then, you never know. Several things impair kidney function, which could cause various symptoms as it messes with the detoxing of the body.

 

[xks201]

Alcohol increases norepinephrine levels according to a study I read. I also benefit from it.

 

[Frunobulax]

Alcohol increases norepinephrine levels according to a study I read. I also benefit from it.

True. It also activates GABA in the brain, increasing parasympatic activity. And since the balance between sympatic and parasympatic activity is out of whack for us, this may be a factor too. (I use GABA to combat insomnia, but it doesn't help me otherwise. But alcohol doesn't help me either.)

 

[Anetta]

Last night I had my standard three wit beers. Gosh it felt good. I could dance, talk for hours, listen to music without PEM. And today I feel better too.
Am I crazy that wit beer is the only thing that significantly helps me with CFS?
I already see tabloids... crazy Russian girl invented CFS treatment and surprise surprise its alcohol.

I don't think other type of alcohol have this effect (I tried wine and whiskey) on me but I plan to conduct "vodka experiment" in the near future.