after videos like these people still dout XMRV exists

[jeffrez]

1st) I am not accusing anyone of anything, so there is no burden on me to PROVE anything.

I'm not accusing anyone of anything, either. You seem to have missed that. I've only said that it is perhaps a likely possibility.

There is in fact a burden on you to prove where you claim HIV/XMRV comes from, if you are disputing me so vigorously. You can't do that, because there is no proof that it just mysteriously "jumped species." That's an opinion, not proof. So where is your proof of where it came from? You are so certain that it didn't come from anywhere I said it seems possible it came from, so you must have some other idea of how it originated. What is that idea, and where is your proof?

2nd) Please don't twist Suzuki Roshi's words to support your inflammatory accusations. That kind of reckless speech is the diametric opposite of what that man lived and stood for.

I didn't twist anything. Speculating on a government or military involvement in an unusual disease, when that government has been known to have secretly spread disease among the population many times before, is not "reckless." It's honest inquiry. You either can't grasp that, or you fail to acknowledge it because you want to browbeat someone who has a different opinion than you do.

I think it's time for you to stop the browbeating now or else I will have no choice but to report you.

We don't know lots of things. Could the Government have engineered HIV and XMRV and infected us? Yes- within the vast spectrum of possibilities that could have happened.

Now suddenly you are saying the same exact thing you have been browbeating me for saying. Do you even know what you're saying? You appear to be very confused.

Is it responsible to float either theory- and make very ugly accusations against the Government regarding a debilitating illness- in the absence of any REAL evidence?

NO- it's not.

It's not "responsible" to question anything? I don't know where you come from, but in America that is the foundation of our country. Free and open inquiry and debate. You sound more like a fascist, in fact. Fascist governments are notorious for wanting to squelch any public discussion, inquiry or criticism regarding the State. That's exactly what you are trying to do here. So in case you weren't aware of it, that's fascism.

We haven't seen any yet.

We haven't seen any for what you claim, either.

I think you'd better just stop responding to my posts. You have nothing valuable or worthwhile to contribute. You are just trying to browbeat someone whom you don't happen to agree with, on a point that is not even worth debating to begin with. Part of growing up and being an adult is learning that not everyone is going to agree with you all the time, and just dealing with it rather than being intolerant of other opinions.

 

[Recovery Soon]

The problem with conspiracy talk is that any idiot can sound knowledgeable by simply alleging things they can't possibly prove- And then the burden of their wild speculations falls on everyone else.

Case in point-

There is in fact a burden on you to prove where you claim HIV/XMRV comes from, if you are disputing me so vigorously.


I think it's time for you to stop the browbeating now or else I will have no choice but to report you.

Wow. It's a shame there's no white flag emoticon- that would have been the time.

Mr. Bomb thrower somehow feels perfectly at ease announcing to a forum of ill people that the Government engineered their illness without a shred of legitimate evidence behind him- and then threatens to tell the teacher once he is called to the carpet on it. Now that's worth the price of admission right there. Welcome to the mind of a conspiracy theorist.

[/QUOTE]
Fascist governments are notorious for wanting to squelch any public discussion, inquiry or criticism regarding the State. That's exactly what you are trying to do here. So in case you weren't aware of it, that's fascism.

Part of growing up and being an adult is learning that not everyone is going to agree with you all the time, and just dealing with it rather than being intolerant of other opinions.[/QUOTE]

Close. Fascism is when those in power impose silence on the masses from the top down. When one citizen calls out another citizen on his half-baked, conspiracy theory- that's called democracy.

As for the adulthood lesson- I'll be generous and hold back the obvious reply. I wouldn't want you telling Mom on me.

PS- Oh, and BTW- to reiterate- YES- Government engineering of XMRV is conceivably possible- The Iraqi/US/North Korea XMRV theory is conceivably possible- Pigs flying in the future is conceivably possible.

I hope that clears up my position.

 

[jeffrez]

Case in point-



Wow. It's a shame there's no white flag emoticon- that would have been the time.

Mr. Bomb thrower somehow feels perfectly at ease announcing to a forum of ill people that the Government engineered their illness without a shred of legitimate evidence behind him- and then threatens to tell the teacher once he is called to the carpet on it. Now that's worth the price of admission right there. Welcome to the mind of a conspiracy theorist.

Fascist governments are notorious for wanting to squelch any public discussion, inquiry or criticism regarding the State. That's exactly what you are trying to do here. So in case you weren't aware of it, that's fascism.

Part of growing up and being an adult is learning that not everyone is going to agree with you all the time, and just dealing with it rather than being intolerant of other opinions.[/QUOTE]

Close. Fascism is when those in power impose silence on the masses from the top down. When one citizen calls out another citizen on his half-baked, conspiracy theory- that's called democracy.

As for the adulthood lesson- I'll be generous and hold back the obvious reply. I wouldn't want you telling Mom on me.

PS- Oh, and BTW- to reiterate- YES- Government engineering of XMRV is conceivably possible- The Iraqi/US/North Korea XMRV theory is conceivably possible- Pigs flying in the future is conceivably possible.

I hope that clears up my position.[/QUOTE]

--------------------------------------------------------

"Wow," is this really the level of discourse that is encouraged on this forum toward other members?

I stated my opinion. If you don't like it, that's simply too bad for you. Take your emotional issues and go browbeat someone else with them. Just leave me out of it. I have no interest in dealing with your emotional issues. Maybe while you're at it you can learn to quote correctly. Trying to sort through your confused presentation is very tiresome.

Here's some more news for you: Just because you don't accept any evidence doesn't mean there isn't any evidence. There's all kinds of evidence from scientists and others. If you don't want to accept any evidence, that's completely different. That's up to you. Believe whatever you want. I honestly couldn't care less what you believe. I don't care what your opinion is. I don't care what your "position" is. Your intolerance toward anyone who has a different opinion that you have is not something I want to engage in anyway. You have no more "proof" for whatever you believe than you are browbeating me over allegedly not having. So you are intolerant and hypocritical. You have no proof.

Finally, I don't appreciate your continual attempts to position me as definitively believing in any "conspiracy theory," when I have always and only said that I believed it was a possibility, not a certainty. "Likely" is a statement of a degree of probability, not absolute certainty, which I am not claiming and never have claimed. So if you persist in engaging in your straw man mischaracterizations of my comments in your apparent effort to take out your emotional issues on me, I will report you for suspension/ban. More than one moderator apparently is reading the thread, and they can see that I've asked you twice now to stop with your aggressive browbeating.

 

[Mark]

"Wow," is this really the level of discourse that is encouraged on this forum toward other members?

No, it isn't. You have both breached forum rules repeatedly on this thread. Please stop with the personal insults now, both of you, or we will have to take action.

 

[Recovery Soon]

No, it isn't. You have both breached forum rules repeatedly on this thread. Please stop with the personal insults now, both of you, or we will have to take action.

Mark,

Action should have been taken after the 2nd, 3rd, or fifth accusation of the US Governments' "likely" engineering and dissemination of HIV and XMRV to it's own citizens...which includes me, you and everyone on this forum. This is not a simple disagreement. And there is no moral equivocation between our traded insults, and the grossly slanderous and highly irresponsible charges- which have yet to be substantiated in any discernible way.

You must understand that when comments like that are allowed to fly- things will get nasty. I come here for factual information and updates regarding my health. Not to hear groundless speculations that the Government gave me CFS presented as likely scenarios- that's completely out of bounds by any reasonable standard.

I would say that the best way to prevent such acrimonious exchanges in the first place would be to Moderate at the time of the slanderous indictments- not after things have spun out of control because they weren't tended to in the first place.

Let's be clear here- the guy threatening to report the thread is the same guy making the worst kinds of accusations possible, with no sense of responsibility or the gravity of his remarks.

Please Note the lack of personal attacks here- per your request. But this situation could have been handled differently so it didn't get this far.

 

[jeffrez]

Mark,

Action should have been taken after the 2nd, 3rd, or fifth accusation of the US Governments' "likely" engineering and dissemination of HIV and XMRV to it's own citizens...which includes me, you and everyone on this forum. This is not a simple disagreement. And there is no moral equivocation between our traded insults, and the grossly slanderous and highly irresponsible charges- which have yet to be substantiated in any discernible way.

Hahaha! It's really priceless. You say you are not a fascist, and then you appeal to the board authority to "take action" against someone merely for stating an opinion. That's completely laughable.

Speaking of proof, where is your proof that XMRV causes CFS? You don't have any. You haven't substantiated anything. That makes your remarks doubly ridiculous, in addition to being completely hypocritical. You say you come here for facts, so there's a fact for you: your comments are hypocritical. In addition to being totally laughable and ridiculous.

People can speculate that the government created HIV or XMRV or contrails or whatever the hell they want to speculate about all day long. If you don't like it, don't read it. Who died and made you King of the Internet? Your arrogance is completely out of control. Trying to tell people what they can and can't say - completely outrageous.

You must understand that when comments like that are allowed to fly- things will get nasty. I come here for factual information and updates regarding my health. Not to hear groundless speculations that the Government gave me CFS presented as likely scenarios- that's completely out of bounds by any reasonable standard.

XMRV involvement in CFS is also completely groundless and speculative. Again, note the hypocrisy. Telling someone else they don't have the right to speculate on any particular thing, when the entire XMRV thing he's gotten his shorts in a bind over is nothing but pure speculation.

"You must understand." Lol - who are you to tell anyone what they "must understand?" Now you're lecturing the moderator? Sheesh, get over yourself.

I would say that the best way to prevent such acrimonious exchanges in the first place would be to Moderate at the time of the slanderous indictments- not after things have spun out of control because they weren't tended to in the first place.

Except nothing "spun out of control" until YOU decided to start browbeating me over a simple OPINION. So let's put the punctuation where it belongs - at the end of the sentence, not at the beginning. I would say the best way to prevent such acrimonious exchanges is to censure the person starting them because they don't like someone else's opinion. In case you didn't notice, that would be YOU.

Let's be clear here- the guy threatening to report the thread is the same guy making the worst kinds of accusations possible, with no sense of responsibility or the gravity of his remarks.

How do you know what I have a sense of? You have no sense of the gravity of your CENSORSHIP attitudes. "let's be clear here," lol. The pomposity is unbelievable.

Notice the lack of personal attacks here- per your request. But this situation could have been handled differently so it didn't get this far.

Give it a rest, buddy, and get off your high horse. I stated my opinion, and then was repeatedly forced to defend myself throughout the entire thread by people like you who can't stand that anyone might have a different opinion than you. "Slanderous indictments," lol. It's an opinion on a CFS messageboard, not a court of law. "Indictments," lol, get over yourself.

 

[Recovery Soon]

Hahaha! It's really priceless.

Indeed.

 

[Mark]

"Wild conspiracy theories" are against the rules but it's a tricky line to police because as Mr Kite has pointed out, if somebody says they "think something seems very likely to them" we don't really want to get into censoring those kind of musings: apart from anything else it can often just fuel some people's paranoia and we try to be as free speech as we can be. And I don't want to be the one to have to define what's "wild" and what's not.

This thread has indeed been out of hand since early on, which is a shame because the video it's supposed to be about is a good one and a significant reminder of important history - unfortunately this thread now just taints that video with conspiracy theory when it's just stating the facts (which is always a good thing to do, we don't need to do any more than that to make a compelling case).

Since I came across this thread I've been trying to nudge people into a more productive frame of mind so that we don't have to close the thread or suspend or ban anyone or anything like that. It's far preferable to encourage people to have the discussion in a way that doesn't create problems and discord, rather than forcing them to comply with rules - nobody likes that.

Complaining about the response time of the moderators doesn't go down well, frankly, since we are always stretched and as I'm sure you both know we have had some technical problems lately. "Taking action" takes a lot of time and energy; appealing to members' better nature is always preferred as it's easier for everyone. Apart from which there has not been any report of a specific rules violation as far as I can see, which would be a much more helpful approach for the moderators rather than expecting us to wade through pages of rubbish looking for a clear violation of forum rules.

This argument between the two of you doesn't seem to be going anywhere so I'm asking you both to just stop now. You can always continue by PM if you must - who knows, you might come to some consensus that way, and you might enjoy the argument more than I am - but both of you please note that if one of you doesn't want to receive messages from the other you can "Ignore" PMs or just ask the other to stop (and you should comply with any such request).

If you carry on we will have to close the thread - at least.

RS if you want a specific post or part of it to be censored then please report it and I will leave it up to other mods to decide whether there is something there so serious that it needs to be cleansed from the record.

That's it: I do hope I am done with this thread now.

 

[urbantravels]

Nobody asked me, but I'd advise immediate closing of the thread.

 

[Recovery Soon]

This thread has indeed been out of hand since early on, which is a shame because the video it's supposed to be about is a good one and a significant reminder of important history - unfortunately this thread now just taints that video with conspiracy theory when it's just stating the facts

Yes- the attention is completely off a great video. Maybe it can be moved to a different thread.

 

[Tia]

What we need is a big WikiLeaks whistleblower type of release to bring the issue to the attention of the media in a way they can sensationalize for profit. That will ensure that they keep reporting on it. Otherwise it will just keep getting buried. No one who doesn't have CFS/XMRV is going to care about XMRV except as a passing interest or curiosity at best, just like no one cares about the - what is it now? close to a million? classified documents released in WikiLeaks. If it weren't for the WikiLeaks trope, it probably wouldn't be in the media even at a fraction of what it is now.

Couldn't agree more!

 

[jeffrez]

Yes- the attention is completely off a great video. Maybe it can be moved to a different thread.

Funny, you never complained about that or had any problem with "conspiracy theories" when someone took the thread completely off topic to say how WikiLeaks was being driven by the evil jews with their government CIA-like agency Mossad and their political lobbying groups. No, no conspiracy theory there.

Not a word out of anyone then, how strange. In fact, I was asked by a moderator to APOLOGIZE to the person who posted the off-topic conspiracy theory about the evil Israeli AIPAC lobby when I mentioned it was off topic, with the moderator not only completely failing to identify the comments for the conspiracy theory they are, but in fact defending them as being "particular policies of the Israeli government or security services," as if the conspiracy theory were actually true! The guy in that post even stated definitively that it was the case: "Wikileaks *IS* a Mossad operation." Oh, really? But it's "offensive" to point out that's just a wild conspiracy theory.

I see how it works. Israel- and Jew-bashing is fine; speculating about anything regarding the pristine US government - even when Professors of Biomedical Ethics at UVA who are presidential appointees to committees that investigated CIA crimes write books meticulously documenting the experiments the government has carried out against people without their knowledge or consent - that's something wildly off base and "crazy talk." President Clinton and professors of Biomedical Ethics at UVA (a school 99% of the people here couldn't even hope to get into) are "crazy," Anti-Israel Mossad conspiracy theories are fine. Okay.

Bizarro world/Alice in Wonderland double standards like that is one reason I really have no interest posting here anymore. I think this place is more than a little toxic. That's my theory, and this time there is plenty of evidence. :wave:

 

[jeffrez]

Moderator: I have edited out the section Mr Kite quoted as it really was offensive well beyond the pale, regardless of the points it was trying to make.

Now you are engaging in actual libel and slander against individuals. Theories about government involvement in particular events is not libelous or slanderous. Your comments here are libelous, and they're also in fact illegal. You and the board can be sued for them. Perhaps that would be the only remedy in a case like this. You have crossed way over the line, and what you have posted is against the law. I would recommend that the moderators take this seriously and recognize this person's post for the libel that it is and remove it, or else I may be forced to consider legal action. Thank you.

 

[Recovery Soon]

Now you are engaging in actual libel and slander against individuals. Theories about government involvement in particular events is not libelous or slanderous. Your comments here are libelous, and they're also in fact illegal. You and the board can be sued for them. Perhaps that would be the only remedy in a case like this. You have crossed way over the line, and what you have posted is against the law. I would recommend that the moderators take this seriously and recognize this person's post for the libel that it is and remove it, or else I may be forced to consider legal action. Thank you.

Slander? Libel? We don't even know your name buddy.

Quit crying- you can't sue anyone.

The point here is that using the words "likely" and "opinion" do not make groundless and ugly accusations acceptable. Do you see that yet?

You stop- I'll stop- And hopefully this thread we'll be closed.

 

[jeffrez]

Slander? Libel? We don't even know your name buddy.

Quit crying- you can't sue anyone.

The point here is that using the words "likely" and "opinion" do not make groundless and ugly accusations acceptable. Do you see that yet?

You stop- I'll stop- And hopefully this thread we'll be closed.

I have spoken to many people here who know my name. It's entirely possible they have seen what you said. Your comments are libelous and illegal. You can and possibly will be sued for them. Removing your libelous comments after the fact does not mitigate the harm. There is no telling who has already seen them. I have them saved on my hard drive for potential legal action against you.

Your "point" is completely irrelevant. Theorizing about government involvement in any particular event is not libel, is not slander, and is not illegal. Making statements against an individual like you have made is indeed very libelous. My best friend and his wife are personal injury attorneys, and I know the law on this. Libelous comments do not even have to be believed by the person stating them to be libelous. The person merely has to repeat libel, and that person has thereby committed libel. Even if they say, "I don't really believe this, but so-and-so told me XYZ," with XYZ being the libelous content, then the person repeating that content has committed libel.

What you have posted is libelous, regardless of whether you said "likely" or "opinion." Your statements are libel, and you can be sued for them, and so can the forum. Do not assume I will not take that action. I have had more than enough of you, and you have gone way over the line on this one. Let's see if a judge gives a shit that anyone was talking about HIV conspiracy theories when you are in court for libel.

 

[Recovery Soon]

I have spoken to many people here who know my name. It's entirely possible they have seen what you said. Your comments are libelous and illegal. You can and possibly will be sued for them. Removing your libelous comments after the fact does not mitigate the harm. There is no telling who has already seen them. I have them saved on my hard drive for potential legal action against you.

Your "point" is completely irrelevant. Theorizing about government involvement in any particular event is not libel, is not slander, and is not illegal. Making statements against an individual like you have made is indeed very libelous. My best friend and his wife are personal injury attorneys, and I know the law on this. Libelous comments do not even have to be believed by the person stating them to be libelous. The person merely has to repeat libel, and that person has thereby committed libel. Even if they say, "I don't really believe this, but so-and-so told me XYZ," with XYZ being the libelous content, then the person repeating that content has committed libel.

What you have posted is libelous, regardless of whether you said "likely" or "opinion." Your statements are libel, and you can be sued for them, and so can the forum. Do not assume I will not take that action. I have had more than enough of you, and you have gone way over the line on this one. Let's see if a judge gives a shit that anyone was talking about HIV conspiracy theories when you are in court for libel.

You want to sue me- Bring it On. A judge will laugh at you very much as I am doing now.

Leave the forum out of this. You are Toxic. They are providing a forum to help people suffering from disease.

All you have brought here is more disease.

 

[jeffrez]

You want to sue me- Bring it On.

Leave the forum out of this. You are Toxic. They are providing a forum to help people suffering from disease.

All you have brought here is more disease.

The forum is the agent disseminating the libel. Why would I leave out the forum? The forum is the one allowing and publishing your outrageous comments. Don't think because your real name is not known that you are in the clear. People have been sued successfully for libel based on username. Google it if you don't believe me.

 

[Recovery Soon]

The forum is the agent disseminating the libel. Why would I leave out the forum? The forum is the one allowing and publishing your outrageous comments. Don't think because your real name is not known that you are in the clear. People have been sued successfully for libel based on username. Google it if you don't believe me.

Goodbye Moron. I'll wait for the subpoena papers.

 

[jeffrez]

Goodbye Moron. I'll wait for the subpoena papers. In the meantime I'm done with your toxicity.

You know what they say about getting what you wish for. Have fun hiring an attorney to cover the costs. That can add up even if I don't win the case.

It's very telling that you can't even recognize your egregious behavior even after the possibility of legal action has been raised. Anyone can see how toxic and completely out of line your comments are. I never engaged - and never would engage - against a person with outrageous, completely offensive libel like you posted. Nothing I posted in the thread even remotely warranted sick material like that being flung at me. It's completely out of line.

As anyone who objectively reads the thread can see clearly, I only first merely stated an opinion, and then second defended myself against all the attacks I received for stating it. I guess in your mind I am the "bad guy" even after I have done absolutely nothing wrong, while you post outrageous, libelous and illegal comments about child molestation. That's very sick thinking even to come up with stuff like that, let alone it being libelous. Maybe it shows where your mind typically dwells, I don't know. I guess we'll have the moderator come in now and tell me how I owe you an apology for your offensive comments. That seems to be the way it works around here.

I think you seriously need to reassess your idea of what is toxic. Your values seem extremely warped to say things like that to someone who you've been attacking the entire thread, and then call the other person toxic. Something is very wrong with that picture, and 'it ain't me.'

 

[Recovery Soon]

As anyone who objectively reads the thread can see clearly, I only first merely stated an opinion, and then second defended myself against all the attacks I received for stating it. I guess in your mind I am the "bad guy" even after I have done absolutely nothing wrong, while you post outrageous, libelous and illegal comments about child molestation.

I think you don't recognize how disturbing your charges actually are. And you sidestepped them by using the word "likely." People here are very sick, as you know. Telling them they are victims of a Government assault against them when there is no evidence is wrong. I can understand raising any theory once. But once you persisted in pushing the theory without demonstrating any reasonable defense against it you crossed the line. You just can't accuse the Government of things like flying planes into their own buildings or engineering diseases and infecting their citizens without expecting a strong reaction. Especially when you're speaking to sick people.

I think you seriously need to reassess your idea of what is toxic. Your values seem extremely warped to say things like that to someone who you've been attacking the entire thread, and then call the other person toxic.

Stating that you- mind you, YOU being a USERNAME- not the actual NAME of a real human being- of "likely" molesting children was a satirical way of demonstrating that using the word "speculation", "likely," or "opinion" is still not acceptable in the absence of evidence. You did not seem to understand this point early on, and used it as a defense to keep leveling your charges against the Government.

However, I do own my own toxicity in engaging in our back and forth insults at the expense of others here. It just breeded more and more negativity. It probably would have been wiser to exercise more discipline and ignore your charges against an actual entity- The US Government- not a Username- and just move on to a healthier thread.