after videos like these people still dout XMRV exists

[jeffrez]

I'm all for a bit of Israel bashing (they deserve it) - but given how surprisingly widespread anti-semitism still is, I'm not surprised Mr Kite was a bit worried by talk of 'the stench of AIPAC' - especially given the history of claims that the Jews are behind it all.

I don't think JPV is an anti-semite, and it would have been totally unfair to accuse him of being one based upon the posting of an article, but Mr.Kite only mentioned a 'tone'. Maybe it was a little blunt and unnecessary... but this whole thread has been pretty weird imo.

edit: typed too slow.

Exactly, thank you. I was very careful in fact not to call anyone an anti-semite. I'm not even sure what AIPAC and allegedly Mossad has to do with a discussion about XMRV anyway. The comments and link seemed to be more in response to the mention of WikiLeaks, which I only brought up to refer to the PR aspect in the first place. When the response to that is a link to a story about the "stench" of a pro-Israel group, it's not surprising that the tone of the entire thing would come across the way it did. It has nothing to do with XMRV that I can see.

 

[Martlet]

Just gets a little tiresome with all the Israel bashing that goes on routinely these days. Just asking if you could be sensitive to that fact, thanks.

Okay, I responded to your first post as a moderator, but now I feel I have to add more. I have been to Israel several times and love visiting that country, but I am also a strong supporter of the Israeli group Shalom Akshav. Being against particular Israeli policies does not make one anti-semitic. It makes one against particular Israeli policies. No less, no more. And it is okay to be against Israel's policies, many of which have been wholeheartedly condemned by the United Nations only to have the United States veto any criticism. So, if it gets tiresome for you, I will answer that I find it tiresome that one nation has been able to drive a bus through every piece of international human rights legislation with complete impunity because it just happens to lie in a geographic location favourable to US policy.

 

[jeffrez]

Okay, I responded to your first post as a moderator, but now I feel I have to add more. I have been to Israel several times and love visiting that country, but I am also a strong supporter of the Israeli group Shalom Akshav. Being against particular Israeli policies does not make one anti-semitic. It makes one against particular Israeli policies. No less, no more. And it is okay to be against Israel's policies, many of which have been wholeheartedly condemned by the United Nations only to have the United States veto any criticism. So, if it gets tiresome for you, I will answer that I find it tiresome that one nation has been able to drive a bus through every piece of international human rights legislation with complete impunity because it just happens to lie in a geographic location favourable to US policy.

I don't really want to get into any of this, especially as I am very crashed and probably almost dead anyway. I just don't see what a link to an anti-Israel story about the "stench" of AIPAC has to do with XMRV. It just seems like one of those things we see too often where people want to turn every possible thing into an opportunity to bash Israel, no matter how tangential or unrelated the topic is. They just can't wait to start talking about those "evil j00s" and their big, bad lobby.

 

[roma]

The government/military most likely created HIV, so it's very likely that they created XMRV, too. It's not a big leap to understand why they want to cover it up.

all three retroviruses started to make people sick around the same time but from what i know one frozen sample from 1957 from an african man tested positive for HIV is the oldest indication of HIV but i think the reason HIV, HTLV were discovered first is because they cause much more rapid progress to illness eventhough the CDC says HTLV causes no illness in 95% of it's carriers studies from Brazil and Japan where HTLV is endemic show otherwise people with HTLV suffer from a wide variety of health problems, i think these viruses have been here for a very long time but it was only until the late 70s early 80' that technology allowed us to discovered them, XMRV seems to be a much more stealthy virus than the other two, it also seems strange how many people from the early days of CFS fell ill after traveling the world specially to asia and a few months later they were ill with a flu like illness..

 

[roma]

I just saw the summary of Dr. Cheney's research on families of CFS patients- 60% with XMRV positives. But the CDC says "no evidence" of transmission? I thought it would be interesting to see what PR's sticky poll came up with for family members or close associates who've been diagnosed with CFS- if I added right (big if ) it was 57%. Very interesting!

In our family, there are three of us with CFS- one positive XMRV so far, others pending. Genetics? No! The three of us sick share no genes. Oh, maybe it's hysteria. :mask:

i can show and prove them that XMRV is transmissible all i need is a video camera and somebody willing to have unprotected sex with me...

 

[jeffrez]

all three retroviruses started to make people sick around the same time but from what i know one frozen sample from 1957 from an african man tested positive for HIV is the oldest indication of HIV but i think the reason HIV, HTLV were discovered first is because they cause much more rapid progress to illness eventhough the CDC says HTLV causes no illness in 95% of it's carriers studies from Brazil and Japan where HTLV is endemic show otherwise people with HTLV suffer from a wide variety of health problems, i think these viruses have been here for a very long time but it was only until the late 70s early 80' that technology allowed us to discovered them, XMRV seems to be a much more stealthy virus than the other two, it also seems strange how many people from the early days of CFS fell ill after traveling the world specially to asia and a few months later they were ill with a flu like illness..

I heard 1959, but regardless, aside from SIV (which probably wouldn't be difficult to modify) they actually seem relatively new. Maybe HIV even came from the Nazis, I wouldn't doubt it. Karma's a bitch, except unfortunately we seem to be the recipients of the karma somehow. That was also the height of the cold war, so who really knows what was going on in various anonymous/clandestine labs around the country or world at that time.

 

[Esther12]

I'll just quickly add that I also agree with Martlet that there are a number of things about Israel which serve to justify a fairly routine bashing.

The HIV stuff just seems so unfounded to me that I don't even have a comment for it.

 

[Martlet]

I don't really want to get into any of this, especially as I am very crashed and probably almost dead anyway. I just don't see what a link to an anti-Israel story about the "stench" of AIPAC has to do with XMRV. It just seems like one of those things we see too often where people want to turn every possible thing into an opportunity to bash Israel, no matter how tangential or unrelated the topic is. They just can't wait to start talking about those "evil j00s" and their big, bad lobby.

Well I don't know what it has to do with XMRV either. However, it was you, it would seem, who made a leap from an article suggesting that the Israel is behind this latest batch of wikileaks (a credible argument, by the way) to the notion that the author hates Jews. Look, I grew up seeing signs for rooms to let, in the windows of Manchester stores whenever we went to visit friends. They said "No Jews, Catholics or Blacks." Prejudice against somebody is part and parcel of fallen humanity, but when someone points out a real wrong, we cannot keep running back to prejudice. I am a Catholic, as you know. I do not put discussion of those gross abuses carried out by a handful of clergy as anti-Catholic propoganda, even though some use it as a reason to bash the Catholics they already hate. Sometimes, organisations and people we love genuinely do wrong things and then we who are members of those organisations or ethnic/religious groups have to just suck up the justified criticism and clean our own houses. That's where Israel is today. Yeah, some people do hate Jews. Always have, always will. But criticism of Israel is not a sign of anti-semitism and I get very tired of people screaming anti-semitism in an attempt to silence legitimate criticism.

 

[Martlet]

I heard 1959, but regardless, aside from SIV (which probably wouldn't be difficult to modify) they actually seem relatively new. Maybe HIV even came from the Nazis, I wouldn't doubt it. Karma's a bitch, except unfortunately we seem to be the recipients of the karma somehow. That was also the height of the cold war, so who really knows what was going on in various anonymous/clandestine labs around the country or world at that time.

Nah. The Nazis kept immaculate records of every single thing they did. That's what makes that era such an interesting study. Those louts at the top, during the Hitler years, were arrogant enough to believe that history would thank them, so they made sure there was a record of their every action. If they had invented HIV, they would have written about it with immense pride. Of course, today we do benefit from the work of Nazi doctors like Mengele and I don't hear anyone here screaming against enjoying the fruit of that poisoned tree!!!

 

[jeffrez]

I'll just quickly add that I also agree with Martlet that there are a number of things about Israel which serve to justify a fairly routine bashing.

The HIV stuff just seems so unfounded to me that I don't even have a comment for it.

You don't think the US military (or Soviet military, for that matter) has engaged in biological weapons research? I'm not normally one for conspiracies, but to deny that would strike me as naive. It doesn't seem farfetched at all to wonder whether something they might have been developing or testing accidentally got away from them and into the "wild" somehow. In fact, it would seem plausible that they would be testing first on chimps instead of humans, perhaps not even knowing yet that their SIV derivative would infect humans. Then whoops, there it goes. Or any of a number of variations seem potentially plausible when we know they are doing that kind of "research" to begin with.

 

[Esther12]

Biological weapons research? Sure. Some of the records have been released.

But HIV? There are so many international and independent scientists working on it that any good evidence AIDS was created as a military weapon would be fairly well known imo. The origins of AIDS as a human disease is something that's recieved a lot of study. I thought they'd traced HIV back for ages as a monkey virus, so it certainly wasn't entirely artificially generated. They still don't exactly know when/how it moved to humans, but their seem to be plausible theories, and no good evidence of any intentional human intervention. Even if someone had wanted to make it inefective for humans, they'd would have needed to be incredibly lucky to be able to do it with the technology of the time.

Just seems like a non-starter to me.

 

[Martlet]

Biological weapons research? Sure. Some of the records have been released.

But HIV? There are so many international and independent scientists working on it that any good evidence AIDS was created as a military weapon would be fairly well known imo. The origins of AIDS as a human disease is something that's recieved a lot of study. I thought they'd traced HIV back for ages as a monkey virus, so it certainly wasn't entirely artificially generated. They still don't exactly know when/how it moved to humans, but their seem to be plausible theories, and no good evidence of any intentional human intervention. Even if someone had wanted to make it inefective for humans, they'd would have needed to be incredibly lucky to be able to do it with the technology of the time.

Just seems like a non-starter to me.

Agreed, Esther, but do you think it could have been a hitch-hiker in vaccine?

 

[jeffrez]

Biological weapons research? Sure. Some of the records have been released.

But HIV? There are so many international and independent scientists working on it that any good evidence AIDS was created as a military weapon would be fairly well known imo. The origins of AIDS as a human disease is something that's recieved a lot of study. I thought they'd traced HIV back for ages as a monkey virus, so it certainly wasn't entirely artificially generated. They still don't exactly know when/how it moved to humans, but their seem to be plausible theories, and no good evidence of any intentional human intervention. Even if someone had wanted to make it inefective for humans, they'd would have needed to be incredibly lucky to be able to do it with the technology of the time.

Just seems like a non-starter to me.

Fair enough. But note that I said accidentally escaped. I don't think there was any intentional nefarious plot to use it on specific populations of civilians. Just seems like one possible scenario that they could have been working on something that got away from them. Accidents happen!

 

[caledonia]

Here is a very interesting video about the origins of HIV: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n_w4MA-RtvA

Summary - it came from using chimp organs to make trial polio vaccines which were then injected into thousands of children in Africa.

A very interesting side note - the researcher involved was Hilary Kaprowski, who was later the boss of Elaine DeFreitas who found evidence of a retrovirus in CFS circa 1991.

I think it's very likely that XRMV came about in the same way, but from using mouse parts to make vaccines.

 

[Esther12]

Here is a very interesting video about the origins of HIV: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n_w4MA-RtvA

Summary - it came from using chimp organs to make trial polio vaccines which were then injected into thousands of children in Africa.

A very interesting side note - the researcher involved was Hilary Kaprowski, who was later the boss of Elaine DeFreitas who found evidence of a retrovirus in CFS circa 1991.

I think it's very likely that XRMV came about in the same way, but from using mouse parts to make vaccines.

I think that that's a theory that's now rather out of favour, but I'm afraid I'm not really up on the specifics. I think it's still uncertain exactly what happened.

 

[BEG]

Esther, I don't think anyone is joking. It's merely an attempt to explain the inexplicable.

 

[Recovery Soon]

The government/military most likely created HIV, so it's very likely that they created XMRV, too.

This is unsubstantiated crazy talk that only hurts our credibility and cause.

BTW- The Video is excellent. It makes the case for XMRV seem more and more likely.

 

[Parismountain]

Gee Marlet what's a handful to you? 4,392 molesting priests in a survey paid for by the United States Conferenc of Catholic Bishops. http://www.philvaz.com/apologetics/PriestAbuseScandal.htm

Not picking on you, just don't like the word handful.

 

[me_is_realist]

nuther guddun'

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HY5Ph_9pL5g&feature=fvst

 

[jeffrez]

This is unsubstantiated crazy talk that only hurts our credibility and cause.

BTW- The Video is excellent. It makes the case for XMRV seem more and more likely.

Nobel Peace Prize winners like Wangari Maathai don't seem to think it's 'crazy talk' (which characterization is very offensive, btw - where is the moderator now?)
http://www.newmediaexplorer.org/sep...bel_calls_aids_weapon_of_mass_destruction.htm

So no, it's actually not 'crazy' at all, but from the perspective of a government that has tested radiation on people without their knowledge or consent, has tested syphilis on people, and that has conducted all kinds of human tests (e.g., http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_MKULTRA) it's very well within the realm of possibility.

And did you forget? It's also unsubstantiated that XMRV is a cause of ME/CFS. So intentionally or otherwise, your comments there are a bit ironic aside from being offensive.