Affects of Methylation on Thyroid?

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I've been following Freddd's B12 protocol for about 2 months now. A few weeks after starting and now especially, I have what I can only describe as a lump in my throat when I swallow. Some days it's hard to take pills because it feels like they never go down.

In the years past, I did test positive for Hashimoto's antibodies but after cleaning up diet and healing those antibodies went away. I've been on one grain of Naturethroid for years to support hypothyroid symptoms.

Since beginning the B12 protocol things are definitely changing slowly. Some ups and downs but this lump in the throat is indicative of something going on in the thyroid. I just asked my MD for a requisition for lab to get thyroid numbers. I can't say that I feel more hypothyroid then normal so not sure why I'm having the throat thing.

Anyone else have this happen?
 

Sushi

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I've been following Freddd's B12 protocol for about 2 months now. A few weeks after starting and now especially, I have what I can only describe as a lump in my throat when I swallow. Some days it's hard to take pills because it feels like they never go down.

In the years past, I did test positive for Hashimoto's antibodies but after cleaning up diet and healing those antibodies went away. I've been on one grain of Naturethroid for years to support hypothyroid symptoms.

Since beginning the B12 protocol things are definitely changing slowly. Some ups and downs but this lump in the throat is indicative of something going on in the thyroid. I just asked my MD for a requisition for lab to get thyroid numbers. I can't say that I feel more hypothyroid then normal so not sure why I'm having the throat thing.

Anyone else have this happen?
Rich found that methylation therapy could improve thyroid function and that some needed to reduce thyroid medication, but he was using much lower doses. Good that you are getting it checked.

Sushi
 

Martial

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I've been following Freddd's B12 protocol for about 2 months now. A few weeks after starting and now especially, I have what I can only describe as a lump in my throat when I swallow. Some days it's hard to take pills because it feels like they never go down.

In the years past, I did test positive for Hashimoto's antibodies but after cleaning up diet and healing those antibodies went away. I've been on one grain of Naturethroid for years to support hypothyroid symptoms.

Since beginning the B12 protocol things are definitely changing slowly. Some ups and downs but this lump in the throat is indicative of something going on in the thyroid. I just asked my MD for a requisition for lab to get thyroid numbers. I can't say that I feel more hypothyroid then normal so not sure why I'm having the throat thing.

Anyone else have this happen?

How much L Carnatine do you take? L Carnatine is a known cause of possibly interuppting thyroid function and causing hypo thyroid symptoms.. You have to take pretty high doses to actually become hypo from it though.. They use it as one of the first line treatment of hyper thyroid as well interesting enough..

If you balance out the L Carnatine with proper supplemented Iodine and Selinum it won't cause any serious effects.
Iodine can cause problems in very high doses for those with hashimotos though, it is a necessary nutrient though and most people are chronically depleted so if that is case it may help to find natural sources like Seaweed or only use a 150mcg a day of supplemental form. that would cover the RDV.

L Carnatine in the doses Fred recommends usually won't cause problems and alongside the rest of the protocol It doesn't seem to negative on the thyroid.. Be aware of combining it with other known things to hamper thyroid though, for example a lot of people use supplemental Lithium which is known to induce hypo thyroid in sensitive individuals./ Supplemental dose is FAR lower then prescription for bi polar though which is where it is more common to do things to hamper thyroid.
 

ahmo

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@Wendi C, I've been able to decrease my thyroid med since my methylation has improved. I'm taking carnitine (LCF). but no iodine, as I react badly to it (Hashi's). I'm also using v low dose lithium. It's lithium orotate, as reocmmended by Yasko, NOT lithium carbonate, used in hi doses for bipolar. You might try applying iodine to your skin, see what happens. There was a time when my throat was v congested, had been for a long time, and cleared remarkably w/ 1 or 2 applications iodine. However, it also causes skin eruptions for me. cheers, ahmo
 
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Thanks @ahmo and @Martial.

I've been taking Lugol's iodine (5 drops) for probably 5 years so nothing changed there. My hashi's went into complete remission years ago after I improved overall by about 70%. Which, of course, made me realize that I didn't have hashi's, but it was simply a result of a sick body.

I am taking LCF, 250mg, 2x/day, so at that dosage I wouldn't think it would cause problems.

I have liquid Lithium carbonate (Oligo) that I only take when I need extra calm and better sleep, so not taken too regularly, but that is so interesting about all of this information.

I completely got rid of things like the Hashi's and Interstitial Cystitis (IC) 5 years ago, but since starting this protocol, the IC has come back and now thyroid issues again. This puzzle will be harder to put together than I thought.
 

caledonia

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No, my thyroid has improved enough that I'm off my medicine (Armour) which I took for 13 years. I had hyper symptoms so my doc took me off.

If you're going backwards, that could be a sign that you getting into the paradoxical folate deficiency that Freddd talks about. In that case, you would need to increase methylfolate until the symptoms clear.

The other thing it could be is methyl trapping of too much methylfolate or B12 relative to each other. I think this one would occur more if you're a fast responder to methylfolate, while the paradoxical deficiency occurs if you're a slow responder. In this case, you would want to decrease either methylfolate or B12.

The only way to tell which camp you're in is to start low and go slow, noting how symptoms are improving or not.

How much methylfolate and B12 are you taking? What amounts did you start with - did you start low and then gradually increase?
 

caledonia

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No, I've been able get off my thyroid medicine (Armour), which I was on for 13 years. I started getting hyper symptoms, so my doc took me off.

If you're going backwards, it can either be methyl trapping which stops methylation, or the paradoxical folate deficiency that Freddd talks about.

The only way I know of to tell which one, is to start low and slowly titrate up, paying attention to symptoms.

How much methylfolate and B12 are you taking, and where did you start with them?
 
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@caledonia - I just read about the paradoxical deficiency and started upping yesterday by 2mg.

My MD had me on relatively small amounts to start, which was 1mg MthFolate (as Quatrafolic) w/5mg MB12 subq w/ 1 AdB12 sublingual (from Anabol Naturals). I upped my dosage of MthFolate by 1mg/week, whereas the MB12 shots were always at 5mg/day up until last week when I doubled the MB12.

I'm now @ 6mg MthFolate w/10mg MB12 subq w/1 AdB12 sublingual.

I felt pretty bad yesterday and so took another AdB12 toward the evening and I actually got quite a lift.
 

caledonia

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@caledonia - I just read about the paradoxical deficiency and started upping yesterday by 2mg.

My MD had me on relatively small amounts to start, which was 1mg MthFolate (as Quatrafolic) w/5mg MB12 subq w/ 1 AdB12 sublingual (from Anabol Naturals). I upped my dosage of MthFolate by 1mg/week, whereas the MB12 shots were always at 5mg/day up until last week when I doubled the MB12.

I'm now @ 6mg MthFolate w/10mg MB12 subq w/1 AdB12 sublingual.

I felt pretty bad yesterday and so took another AdB12 toward the evening and I actually got quite a lift.
If you actually mean mg and not mcg, that's way too much to start with. Those are more like final doses, and some (most?) people wouldn't even need that much.

For example, I'm on 16mcg of B12 and an even smaller amount of methylfolate, and I've made all my gains on amounts like this. The idea is to balance the methylation cycle, not obliterate it.

Please read the Start Low and Go Slow document in my signature.
 
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Thanks @caledonia.

I did mean Mgs. Perhaps I should have started lower. :confused:

I may have to stop for a few months and then re-start. I think part of the issue is that you see threads of what so-and-so is doing and you think it might work for you, but then you also read about the paradoxical hole and think you need to go higher.

Think I'll sleep on it and see what my intuition tell me.
 

Martial

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@Wendi C I think some people are just very sensitive too it and need to start lower and slower like caledonia mentions.. If it is just paradoxical deficiency you could fix it with added methyl folate but are you also avoiding folic acid, NAC, glutathione supplements, and Whey Protein powder? These are all triggers of methyl trap that no amount of b12 and folate can break until they are removed.

I had the issue of using WAY too much folate, methyl b12, Adeno b12, and Carnatine and got way over stimulated lol. Moderation is important though I believe Fred mentions if you go too low that in itself could trigger folate deficiency.

Here is an excerpt of that convo I had with him.
 

Martial

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"Hi Todd,

methyl folate can range from 400, to roughly 1600mg a day.. Do you think that low dose of folate would even trigger paradox deficiency? It seems most people that had that were using much higher doses...-Todd

This one you have 100% backwards. A low dose like this almost always triggers donut hole paradoxical folate deficiency. Higher doses relieve it. Low dose methylfolate PFD can cause massive inflammation.

Daily doses of B1 and B2 above 30-50mg a day and B3 above 100mg a day can cause an insatiable need for methylfolate and potassium, so make sure that is ok. Remind me that you are not taking NAC, glutathione or Whey.

If you want to get rid of low folate symptoms and inflammation try 4mg of l-methylfolate or so each 4-6 hours Typically it will start turning around within a few hours and after a day or 3 you should know for sure. Now it is possible you are one of those who needs 30mg a day to make any headway but that is rare without folic acid or folinic acid or large amounts of vegetable folate.

Try 8mg before you go to bed tonight. Metafolin has no side effects different from sugar pills. That is what the Deplin study says at doses up to 30mg/day. Best results are at 15 and 30mg daily. That is what all my experience says. The people who take tiny doses have terrible reactions and think it is because of so much folate instead of so little. They have even worse responses with 200 mcg of folinic and 200mcg of mfolate. Wow do they get hit. That is because of a double whammy paradoxical folate deficiency. Without the folate you are wasting your money and wasting 90% of the b12. You could get equally bad results from 500mcg of b12.

Try it cautiously, 4 mg and then 4rmg in couple of more hours to avoid possible stomach distress or take 8mg and some food and go for it. You could be a new man in 2 days.

After you get rid of all the folate deficiency symptoms, then is the time to adjust other things. Doing it otherwise is bass akwards.

Now this is my opinion and experience. Everybody who takes the small doses has terrible results and a rough time. The people who use the larger doses get healing going. You can always go back but I would bet
you won't want to. Do as you wish. It is your game of you bet your life. I would bet on the bigger "go for it" doses.

Fred"
 

ahmo

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@Wendi C,
This puzzle will be harder to put together than I thought.
Yes, it tends to be. But, not insoluble. During the last 2 years I've come to understand my life-long ailments and issues. I thought that I was going the way of the guy who has a sign on his coffin, "SEE, I TOLD you I was sick!" Having solved the puzzle has changed my life, offering a future of new possibilities. I'm currently on 14mg Mfolate, 15-16mg MB12, 7.5mg AdB12. I started w/ .5mg folate for months, was too scared to move up. I'm so glad I did, I would never have imagined needing the amount I'm now taking, but it seems so.

@Martial, thanks for this excellent piece from Fred.
 
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@Martial - Thanks for that convo from Freddd.

Yes, avoiding Glutathione and NAC (never could tolerate NAC; the stomach hates it!). I do, however, make my own milk kefir which has whey in it I'm sure. What's the hiccup with whey?

But today, I felt great until 10-15 minutes after I took my cocktail of 4mg MthFolate, 500mg TMG, vit D, and iodine mix (MB12 I took hours earlier).. I mean, I crashed hard. Lump in throat came back and my brain just turned to mush and I think I stared at my screen for several hours without knowing it.

@ahmo - LOVE your coffin sign.. Me TOO! I see you are also +/- for both MTHFRs. I read Dr. Ben's post that those of us only hetero need very little. I guess that doesn't apply to all! Good to know and also confusing. I suppose I'm just ambitious. After 20 + years of this crap I'd REALLY like to just get over the hump.. My kid deserves better from me.
 

Martial

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@Martial - Thanks for that convo from Freddd.

Yes, avoiding Glutathione and NAC (never could tolerate NAC; the stomach hates it!). I do, however, make my own milk kefir which has whey in it I'm sure. What's the hiccup with whey?

But today, I felt great until 10-15 minutes after I took my cocktail of 4mg MthFolate, 500mg TMG, vit D, and iodine mix (MB12 I took hours earlier).. I mean, I crashed hard. Lump in throat came back and my brain just turned to mush and I think I stared at my screen for several hours without knowing it.

@ahmo - LOVE your coffin sign.. Me TOO! I see you are also +/- for both MTHFRs. I read Dr. Ben's post that those of us only hetero need very little. I guess that doesn't apply to all! Good to know and also confusing. I suppose I'm just ambitious. After 20 + years of this crap I'd REALLY like to just get over the hump.. My kid deserves better from me.

@Wendi C Milk Kefir does not contain the kind of whey protein that causes issues, this more stems from whey protein isolates processed to create whey protein powders. Unless you are adding actual whey protein powder to create your kefir as an added nutrient.

Whey interferes with the cell production from methylation as it takes out methyl groups to use in its own absorption and production in the body. Whey protein powder is a very healing and positive addition to peoples diets in this way, just as glutathione and NAC, but in terms of already being on a specific methylation protocol they cause a lot of interference and render it less effective to useless depending on the amount of trapping.

It is possible that it also could contribute to problems with methylation in people that do not use methylation protocols but I do not know enough about that, based on studies and research they seem quite helpful though so I think its unlikely to be a problem unless using something like Fred's protocol.

I honestly feel like I should sticky this note from Fred somewhere else in the forum as well, seems pretty important and I know others did the same exact thing I did which caused issues for me.
 

ahmo

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@Martial, yes if you know how to do that, sticky the comments. I'd love to make a Freddd compilation, but not enuf brain power for that. Thankfully there's howirecovered's FAQ page.

I followed your link to see you've got Lyme. I've just watched, finally, Dietrich Klinghardt's vid on treating lyme/pyroluria. I'd been following his pyroluria protocol, but never had seen him. Now I've been watching all his vids. If you haven't, check out the links below.

Re glutathione, powdered whey: I had a toxic psychotic episode a few years ago. I worked out afterwards that I'd been taking a number of supps Teitelbaum recommends, things to correct the "fatigue". But I wasn't sleeping, and added a 2nd rx to my Klonopin. In the psych ward, the Dr. pointed his finger at me, "Didn't you know there was amphetamine in that sleeping pill?" huh??? Shows how out of it I was to not have checked up on it beforehand. Anyway, I finally understand it was more than just all these "tonifying" supps. The sulfur in the whey would have also bombarded me, and the glutathione must have been off the charts. But I've also never resumed, nor, apparently, needed, ribose, 5HTP. cheers, ahmo:balloons:

Klinghardt: Autism, Lyme, Pyroluria
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=-z3kRDYcvhA

Powerpoint doc from Klinghardt presentation: Lyme Induced Autism
http://www.lymeinducedautism.com/images/1_KlinghardtKPU_09_PX.pdf

A Treatment Guide: Lyme and Other Chronic Infections (92 pgs) D. Klinghardt MD, 2009
http://www.klinghardtacademy.com/images/stories/powerpoints/treatinglyme 2010.pdf

Lyme Induced Autism 80 pg doc; comprehensive discussion, charts, thermal images
http://www.lymeinducedautism.com/images/KlinghardtLIA_II.pdf
 

Martial

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@Martial, yes if you know how to do that, sticky the comments. I'd love to make a Freddd compilation, but not enuf brain power for that. Thankfully there's howirecovered's FAQ page.

I followed your link to see you've got Lyme. I've just watched, finally, Dietrich Klinghardt's vid on treating lyme/pyroluria. I'd been following his pyroluria protocol, but never had seen him. Now I've been watching all his vids. If you haven't, check out the links below.

Re glutathione, powdered whey: I had a toxic psychotic episode a few years ago. I worked out afterwards that I'd been taking a number of supps Teitelbaum recommends, things to correct the "fatigue". But I wasn't sleeping, and added a 2nd rx to my Klonopin. In the psych ward, the Dr. pointed his finger at me, "Didn't you know there was amphetamine in that sleeping pill?" huh??? Shows how out of it I was to not have checked up on it beforehand. Anyway, I finally understand it was more than just all these "tonifying" supps. The sulfur in the whey would have also bombarded me, and the glutathione must have been off the charts. But I've also never resumed, nor, apparently, needed, ribose, 5HTP. cheers, ahmo:balloons:

Klinghardt: Autism, Lyme, Pyroluria
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=-z3kRDYcvhA

Powerpoint doc from Klinghardt presentation: Lyme Induced Autism
http://www.lymeinducedautism.com/images/1_KlinghardtKPU_09_PX.pdf

A Treatment Guide: Lyme and Other Chronic Infections (92 pgs) D. Klinghardt MD, 2009
http://www.klinghardtacademy.com/images/stories/powerpoints/treatinglyme 2010.pdf

Lyme Induced Autism 80 pg doc; comprehensive discussion, charts, thermal images
http://www.lymeinducedautism.com/images/KlinghardtLIA_II.pdf

@ahmo Yes I am very familiar with Dr. Klinghardt's work, truly a brilliant man as well.. That is very interesting about the psychotic episode as well.


I almost was self admitted myself but was not suicidal or homicidal so they would not allow me to stay, thank god. Lol I didn't have a psychotic break per say rather just an immense herx that was accidental before treatment and created explosive agitation, severe mental tiredness, and all sorts of other weird violent and powerful emotions.

It all just welled out in the periods of a couple days, along side severe pan anxiety, and all other kinds of weird things. A therapist referred to it as imploding from repressing a bunch of emotinal stress and the like, actually a period of stressful life events is what triggered the dormant lyme to become activated for me.

I had been bite a couple of years before and was asymptomatic until that time period. I did have auditary and visual images happen in altered states of consciousness from the lyme as well.. Nothing to define actual hallucinations though I know that now, these things did not appear out of my thoughts, more like hypnogagic hallucinations.

So what exactly was in the supplements that triggered it for you, the amphetimines? I know that is a common trigger for psychotic episodes for many people...

I think this is also why it is SO IMPORTANT to know what we are taking, and of any interactions and adverse effects of herbs, vitamins, and supplements we all take.
 

ahmo

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@Martial,
So what exactly was in the supplements that triggered it for you, the amphetamines? I know that is a common trigger for psychotic episodes for many people...
I think the amphetamine was the last straw. but something was well and truly happening before this, making me desperate enough to add another pharmaceutical, which I generally avoid. I was so focused on the path of "increasing my energy" to deal with the "chronic fatigue", per the advice I saw, that I kept doing that. I knew nothing in those days. My GP referred me to Teitelbaum's work, told me he, GP, knew nothing.

Now, I can see that not only was I pushing my methylation with the whey, but I was also overloading sulfur and histamines, both of which are toxic to me. Then, it was all a big toxic stew. Now, I can read my symptoms and act quickly, avoiding most all of the bad reactions. I'm about 2 months into intensive (for me) coffee enemas, 4 days on, 2 days off. In this process I've found I release a lot of sulfur/ammonia and histamines. Once I understood that, I supplement accordingly, and am progressing without much discomfort. So, I'm off to enemaland just now, which is a great opportunity to watch these vids.:thumbsup: Today's a second viewing of the one I've linked above. cheers, ahmo