Abilify tolerance

[leokitten]

I’m on keto for a week (without any effect btw) and eat tons of cheese

I already eat lots of veggies...

@Martin aka paused||M.E. you have to be careful that you think you are doing keto but aren’t in deep enough ketosis to circumvent the glycolysis dysfunction in ME.

I found this out within the first few days because I bought a ketone and glucose blood meter and test strips (from Keto Mojo https://keto-mojo.com/ they ship to EU too) and saw that with my initial keto diet my glucose ketone index (GKI) wasn’t low enough and I was only in low to moderate ketosis. I adjusted my diet and once I got deep enough suddenly it was like the light switch on and my metabolism was working again and my ME symptoms drastically improved.

You cannot eat a lot of vegetables on keto, and you also cannot eat many types of vegetables. You also cannot have too much protein as your liver will convert excess protein into glucose via gluconeogenesis and bring you out of ketosis. I found it takes really careful and restrictive dieting to achieve therapeutic ketosis. I had to use a keto app to input everything I was eating and monitor that I was achieving daily macro goals. Unfortunately it’s really time consuming and a lot of work to do keto.

 

[Martin aka paused||M.E.]

@Martin aka paused||M.E. you have to be careful that you think you are doing keto but aren’t in deep enough ketosis to circumvent the glycolysis dysfunction in ME.

I found this out within the first few days because I bought a ketone and glucose blood meter and test strips (from Keto Mojo https://keto-mojo.com/ they ship to EU too) and saw that with my initial keto diet my glucose ketone index (GKI) wasn’t low enough and I was only in low to moderate ketosis. I adjusted my diet and once I got deep enough suddenly it was like the light switch on and my metabolism was working again and my ME symptoms drastically improved.

You cannot eat a lot of vegetables on keto, and you also cannot eat many types of vegetables. You also cannot have too much protein as your liver will convert excess protein into glucose via gluconeogenesis and bring you out of ketosis. I found it takes really careful and restrictive dieting to achieve therapeutic ketosis. I had to use a keto app to input everything I was eating and monitor that I was achieving daily macro goals. Unfortunately it’s really time consuming and a lot of work to do keto.

I use this keto app and a KETOSCAN unit who’s telling me I’m in stable Ketosis

 

[Hip]

It seems that tolerance to beta adrenergic receptor agonists occurs quickly, but also dissipates quickly.

This paper says:

tolerance occurs after a single dose and reaches a maximum after 1 week of regular formoterol. Sensitivity recovers 3 days after stopping treatment.

 

[Martin aka paused||M.E.]

It seems that tolerance to beta adrenergic receptor agonists occurs quickly, but also dissipates quickly.

This paper says:

This can’t be the case then b/c I quitted Abilify for about five weeks

 

[leokitten]

@leokitten Do you still eat ketogenic, or is it just low carb now? What happens if you eat high carb meals? Do you feel noticably worse?

I did keto for a bit over a year until sometime mid to late 2019. I stopped doing low carb last year when I became bedridden. I can’t tell so much anymore if a high carb meal makes me worse because my ME has changed now where I always feel real terrible and cannot get out of bed. Maybe high carb meals make me more sleepy it’s hard to tell.

 

[leokitten]

I use this keto app and a KETOSCAN unit who’s telling me I’m in stable Ketosis

Is your GKI < 3? https://keto-mojo.com/glucose-ketone-index-gki/

 

[Hip]

This can’t be the case then b/c I quitted Abilify for about five weeks

Could be.

But also it might be the mysterious permanent tolerance that seems to occur in ME/CFS, which Dr Goldstein was aware of.

 

[Jessie 107]

I have been doing the keto diet for almost 18 months but at Christmas I fell off the wagon and now I've gone back to eating a normal diet what I can tell you is I don't feel any the worst for it in fact since going back to my old diet I haven't crashed once

 

[leokitten]

@Jessie 107 @Martin aka paused||M.E. I agree for some reason the diet doesn’t seem to work for some people or it stops working like it did for me. But like Abilify for some people it produces a dramatic improvement within days of starting the diet and it lasts for a few months. I felt like I was in near remission in the beginning. ME is so frustrating I wish we could better understand these important clues.

 

[Jessie 107]

Also, I am still getting benefits from Abilify, just hoping it continues to work for me.

 

[jaybee00]

@Hip do you have the chapter on tolerance from Goldstein’s book that you could post here?

 

[YippeeKi YOW !!]

Here a more complete list of butyrate-producing microbes: https://microbiomeprescription.com/Library/EndProductProducers?epid=22&sampleId=0

Here's some more, tho I may be duplicating some of yours: Clostridium butyricum (the most prominent and main bacterium) C. kluyveri, C. beijerinckii, C. barkeri, C. acetobutylicum, C. thermobutyricum, C. thermopalmarium, C. pasteurianum, Butyribacterium sp., Sarcina sp., Megasphera sp., Fusobacterium nucleatum, Peptococcus asacelarolyticus, Butyrivibrio fibrisolvens, Pseudobutyrivibrio ruminis, and Eubacterium limosum ...

The reason I suggested the dietary route is that I've always thought that it's generally a good thing if you can get your body to kick in when it can. You never know what other systems might benefit from a general tune-up, or fro the side effects of the nutritive improvement ....

On top of that, the jury is still out regarding butyrate or butyric acid supplement's effectiveness vs. the nutritional route, as well as some of it's pitfalls which would include cost. Good butyrate supps, as well as the probiotics that encourage its production in your gut, are fairly spendy, tho there are cheaper (and potentially less dependable) alternatives.

But butter is butter, potatoes are potatoes, a jicama is a jicama, etc etc etc....

Ghee is a great source of butyrate, and jicama, a veg that I love for it's succulent juicy crunchiness, is a great prebiotic, as are the aforementioned legumes, potato starch and potatoes and all other resistant starches, onions, asparagus, jerusalem artichokes, and I believe garlic to some degree.

In recent analysis of the metagenome, it has also been suggestd that butyrate can be synthesized from proteins thru the lysine pathway ....

So there's a wealth of sources that provide a broader spectrum of benefits and are worth considering .....

 

[YippeeKi YOW !!]

The reason is because the fibers consumed are only half of the equation, it alse needs the specific gut-bacteria. Here the examples given in my ubiome-test of some of them:

The good news here is that our microbiome is capable of adjusting, sometimes very quickly, within 2 to 4 days and increasing thereafter, to new foods, and producing the bacteria necessary for their digestion and utilization ....

The human body, much as we;ve all experienced its capacity for betrayal, is a truly magnificent instrument ....

 

[Hip]

@Hip do you have the chapter on tolerance from Goldstein’s book that you could post here?

I've just taken some pictures of that very short chapter, and attached it as a pdf to the bottom of my post on Goldstein's receptor desensitization analysis.

Or just click here to download the pdf.



As you mentioned, Goldstein says that inositol trisphosphate (IP3) is involved with alpha 1 adrenergic receptor desensitization, and thinks IP3 might be stimulated by high doses of the supplement inositol.

By high doses, he means the sort of inositol doses used to treat depression or OCD, which are typically 6 to 18 grams a day (one to three heaped teaspoons of powder). You can buy bulk inositol powder online, for about £25 per kilo. I sometimes take high dose inositol for its antidepressant effects.

 

[YippeeKi YOW !!]

It seems that tolerance to beta adrenergic receptor agonists occurs quickly, but also dissipates quickly.

I agree with @Martin aka paused||M.E. 's experience after quitting Abilify for 5 weeks.

I think that the quick and easy reversal-of-tolerance issue is one that Drs like to subscribe to and accept as gospel, but that doesn;t prove out in The Real World, or at least hasn't with anyone I've read or know, regardless of the earnest research papers saying otherwise.

Once tolerance sets in, a whole new set of rules seems to apply, and since Drs prefer not to recognize that reality, it's up to us to figure out what those new rules are, and where the hacks around them might be ....

I think a full body/brain reset may be required, tho where the nips and tucks are will probably be slightly different for all of us. As well as excruciatingly hard to find ....

 

[YippeeKi YOW !!]

You also cannot have too much protein as your liver will convert excess protein into glucose via gluconeogenesis and bring you out of ketosis.

This is true for everyone, not just those of us on a Keto diet.

The body can only utilize about 25-28 gms of protein at a sitting, and anything over that converts into glucose and then fat. Which seems extremely unfair, but there it is .....

 

[YippeeKi YOW !!]

I wish we could better understand these important clues.

I hear 'ya .... it's like hearing a series of distant sounds in the underbrush of the forest and knowing that they mean something important, but having no idea whether it's a signal to flee or get ready to welcome a friend or maybe a potential main dish for dinner that night....

Very frustrating.

 

[leokitten]

This is true for everyone, not just those of us on a Keto diet.

The body can only utilize about 25-28 gms of protein at a sitting, and anything over that converts into glucose and then fat. Which seems extremely unfair, but there it is .....

I think some people have made the case based on evidence from the metabolomics studies that some pwME need a bit more protein than what is sufficient for healthy people, though still on keto you have to keep track of it to not consume more than probably 100 grams per day and use a ketone and glucose blood meter to measure GKI to ensure deep ketosis.

 

[Martin aka paused||M.E.]

Is your GKI < 3? https://keto-mojo.com/glucose-ketone-index-gki/

It measures acetones and I’m at above 9 ppm

 

[YippeeKi YOW !!]

I think some people have made the case based on evidence from the metabolomics studies that some pwME need a bit more protein than what is sufficient for healthy people

If I'm remembering right, and what are the odds, I believe that they did so without sufficient supportive substantiation to give it legs.

So if you want to adhere to that, there’s nothing that says you can’t eat 25 g of protein every 4 to 5 hours, thereby tucking away more than enough in the course of the day ….