• Welcome to Phoenix Rising!

    Created in 2008, Phoenix Rising is the largest and oldest forum dedicated to furthering the understanding of and finding treatments for complex chronic illnesses such as chronic fatigue syndrome (ME/CFS), fibromyalgia (FM), long COVID, postural orthostatic tachycardia syndrome (POTS), mast cell activation syndrome (MCAS), and allied diseases.

    To become a member, simply click the Register button at the top right.

A plug for muscle testing

Mary

Moderator Resource
Messages
17,293
Location
Southern California
I’ve thought of doing this post for a long time but have hesitated because of the negative or, more often, non-response I receive when I mention muscle testing. But then I thought, what the heck - it might help someone, so here it is.

But first, please don’t ask me for “proof” that MT works or to provide a scientific explanation fo how it works. I’ve provided possible explanations before and they’ve never been accepted. I have some ideas but don’t know for certain how it works; I have nothing that would be considered “proof” by scientists - all I know is it has been amazingly effective for me.

There are no clinical trials proving the efficacy of muscle testing (like so very many therapies mentioned on this board). Someone asked me once if I would rely on MT for an AIDS diagnosis. No, I wouldn’t. As with all medical care, you have to educate yourself to keep from being harmed and to proceed intelligently. If MT indicated I should swallow arsenic, well, I wouldn’t - there’d obviously be something wrong there. (Though it never has suggested something harmful for me.)

Muscle testing has been invaluable in helping me navigate the bewildering journey with ME/CFS. It’s helped me countless times in figuring out what the heck was going on (was I herxing, detoxing and/or sick, did my cortisol go too low, was I deficient in something, or taking too much of something or not enough, etc. etc. etc.). It’s helped identity several problems - adrenal issues, several digestive issues (including toxic liver, inflamed gallbladder, stuck ileocecal valve, detoxing problems) and even helped find remedies for all of these.

It has limitations of course - it hasn’t been able to solve the riddle of PEM, and found no easy solution for intractable insomnia, though it has been very helpful in checking the numerous things I have tried for PEM and insomnia.

It’s been especially invaluable in determining what supplements are good for me and in what doses, and which ones to avoid. I don’t think I would be where I am today, healthwise, without it.

It has been a slow and often very difficult journey to get to where I am. Eleven years ago I had 1 or 2 “good” days a month - a “good” day was one on which I wasn’t sick, crashed or detoxing or just feeling like s**t for unknown reasons though I was still limited to 3-1/2 to 4 hours of light activity in order to avoid PEM. Now I often have a couple of good days a week, though my activity threshold remains the same. I have to remind myself how bad it was before because overall I feel so much better. My PEM recovery time has been more than cut in half, I recover much quicker from being sick, sleep is starting to get manageable, my overall energy is better, I no longer detox at the drop of a hat, chronic low potassium issues are being successfully dealt with, and my digestion is pretty good.

This is due to several things, most notably getting detoxing pathways working properly and numerous supplements. And I don’t think I could have gotten through the detoxing nor determined what were the proper supplements for me, and in what doses, without muscle testing providing light along the way. It would have been too hard, just plunging blindly ahead.

If I reacted badly to something, without MT I had no way of knowing why. On a couple of occasions the bad reaction was caused by refeeding syndrome - I actually needed the things which were making me feel like crap - but they created a deficiency in other things. And it would have been quite difficult for me to sort this out without MT. e.g., taking thiamine gave me a really nice boost in energy, only to wipe me out a day or 2 later. WTH? Because MT indicated the thiamine was good for me. Well, because I had done reading about refeeding syndrome, plus experienced something similar when I started taking methylfolate which caused my potassium to tank, I suspected the thiamine was depleting something. But what? It felt different than when my potassium was depleted.

I'd read about hypophosphatemia as the hallmark of refeeding syndrome and so I read about phosphorous sources and tested them, and tested very strong for them. So I drank several glasses of kefir and sure enough, within a few hours my energy started to come back and I was able to keep taking thiamin, which I badly wanted to do.

I’ve seen several chiropractors who do MT, and most have been good, though there was one who didn’t know what he was doing (like many MDs!) And over the years I’ve developed my own technique I use on my self and other people, albeit very carefully. And I still see my chiropractor not infrequently to see if his testing agrees with mine, and most often they are in accord.

There are lots of videos about MT on youtube, but I don’t recommend people do MT themselves without first having it done by someone knowledgeable. There are things you need to learn, such as keeping your mind blank or as neutral as possible when doing the testing. Your mental state can affect the outcome of the testing. If you badly want (or don’t want) a particular result, you may not get an impartial result.

Also - don’t misunderstand - I’m NOT saying don’t get blood work done or don’t see your doctor. But I am suggesting when your doctor reaches a dead end and your blood work is always normal and no one knows what to do, you might give MT a try.

15 years ago I had dull pain in my lower right side, plus I felt fluish and sick. I went to my MD. He did a barium enema (fun!), found nothing and sent me home. I still felt sick. I then saw my chiropractor and within a few minutes he found that my ileocecal valve was stuck and shit was literally backing up in my body, making me feel sick. He pressed gently on the area in question and using MT determined when the valve was closed again, and within a few hours the symptoms abated. The symptoms did return a day or 2 or 3 later, and I learned to press on my side myself. I was under severe stress at the time and when the stressor was finally removed, this stopped happening to me. This same chiropractor later helped me when my adrenals were badly stressed, when gallbladder was inflamed and my liver was in bad shape, overloaded with toxins, among many other things.

No one can successfully perform muscle testing on another without their consent. It’s like hypnosis in that respect. If someone is determined not to be hypnotized, they won’t be, no matter how skillful the hypnotist. I recently was doing MT on someone to see if a particular supplement would be beneficial for them. As an initial test, I had her say a true statement and then test, and then a false statement and then test. And her arm stayed strong after the false statement. When questioned, she admitted she had felt her arm start to go weak after the false statement, so she had deliberately resisted and kept her arm strong when it started to go weak. So MT can’t be forced on anyone - they have to be willing for it to work, just like with hypnosis. It’s not a contest of strength.

A good thing about MT is it’s relatively cheap - the initial visit might be $150 or very often less and follow ups are generally the cost of a chiropractic adjustment.

BTW, I didn’t “believe” in MT when I first had it done. I had been sick for some 7 years then (but before I started crashing). MDs had been helpless, muttered things about EBV and sent me home. This was around 1993. I stumbled across a chiropractor who did MT (I’d never even heard of MT before), I had nothing to lose, apart from $50, and am so glad I gave it a chance. I would have tried anything if it wasn’t too expensive and wasn’t toxic or harmful, and MT is none of these. In the first visit the chiropractor found a couple of digestive issues undetected by doctors (and I knew so little about my body at that time I didn’t have a clue what was going on - I know a lot more now and can usually figure out these things). He gave me a couple of things by Standard Process and within a few days I started to feel better. He helped me more than all the previous 7 years of seeing Mds in that one visit. Later he found my weak adrenals and many other things.

To find a practitioner, I’d suggest either calling chiropractic offices and just ask them. Or go to the Standard Process website which has a search feature for practitioners who use their products (most often chiropractors).

And, for people who are too weak to be tested themselves, there is a technique using surrogate testing. PM me if you’d like more info on this. (I’ve had it done and it worked)
 

pamojja

Senior Member
Messages
2,379
Location
Austria
When I started to supplement years ago I went for muscle testing (usually called kinesiology here) by a pharmacist. To my surprise he got very annoyed about himself and didn't charged me for the session, because allegedly to detect a nutrient need one would have to be off all supplementation. The results would be unreliable.

While you seem to say it works nevertheless?
 

Mary

Moderator Resource
Messages
17,293
Location
Southern California
When I started to supplement years ago I went for muscle testing (usually called kinesiology here) by a pharmacist. To my surprise he got very annoyed about himself and didn't charged me for the session, because allegedly to detect a nutrient need one would have to be off all supplementation. The results would be unreliable.

While you seem to say it works nevertheless?

It does for me. I might skip a certain supplement on a day I will be tested for that particular supplement - because if it's already in my system, getting the dose right might be off a bit. Sort of like someone might stop their thyroid or other med on a day they're getting blood work done. Though I don't always remember to stop a certain supplement on a day I will be tested for it, and it still works pretty well.

But I've never stopped all my supplements to get tested. Just like you wouldn't stop your thyroid med on a day you're getting blood work done for something else.

One other thing I forgot to mention above is that a person can get "reversed", for lack of a better word - they will test weak for "yes" or positive things, and go strong for "no" or negative things. And there's a way to get the reversal reversed as it were.

So that's another reason I recommend that someone knowledgeable and experienced be doing it, and not to just try what you see on youtube, at least until a person is familiar with MT.
 

mattie

Senior Member
Messages
363
muscle testing and kynesiology are 100% pure quack.
This has been proven so many times.

There are no clinical trials proving the efficacy of muscle testing
Correct and there is lots of proof that it is 100% fake.

https://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/Tests/ak.html

Although the claims of applied kinesiology are so far removed from scientific reality that testing them might seem a waste of time, competent researchers have subjected the muscle-testing procedures to several well-designed controlled tests and demonstrated what should be obvious to rational persons. Some have found no difference in muscle response from one substance to another, while others have found no difference between the results with test substances and with placebos.

  • Three practitioners testing eleven subjects made significantly different assessments; their diagnoses of nutritional deficiencies did not correspond to the nutrient levels obtain by blood serum analysis; and that the responses to nutrient substances did not significantly differ from responses to placebos [10].
  • Another study found no effect from administering the nutrients "expected" to strengthen a muscle diagnosed as "weak" by AK practitioners." [11]
  • Researchers who conducted an elaborate double-blind trial concluded that "muscle response appeared to be a random phenomenon." [12]
  • Another study showed that suggestion can influence the outcome of muscle-testing. During part of this experiment, college students were told that chewing M&M candies would give them instant energy that would probably make them test stronger. Five out of nine did so [13].
  • Four AK practitioners tested seven patients who were extremely sensitive to wasp venom. Altogether, 140 muscle tests were done to see how the patients responded to preparations of venom or salt water in a bottle. If the test were valid, the venom bottles should result in "strong" reactions and the salt-water bottles should produce "weak" test reactions. However, the practitioners were unable to identify which bottles contained which [14].
  • Several chiropractors were tested at a medical office while under unblinded and blinded conditions. During the volunteers could resist downward pressure when a drop of glucose was placed on their tongue but could resist when fructose was administered. The the arm tests were repeated using substances in coded test tubes so that the volunteer, the chiropractors, and the onlookers could not tell which solution being applied to the volunteer's tongue. When the code was revealed, There was no connection between ability to resist and whether the volunteer was given the "good" or the "bad" sugar [15].
 
Last edited:

sb4

Senior Member
Messages
1,654
Location
United Kingdom
I am interested in this, as I think that current medical dogma has got a lot of things wrong and is far too quick to call anything that isn't inline with this thinking quackery; but am probably not going to go out of the house to get it done.

Can you give a brief overview of what you do? Trying to figure out if I should spend my time trying this or not. Thanks.
 

Dechi

Senior Member
Messages
1,454
I’ve had it done to me many times. I do believe in it. There’s no quack about it, it’s nothing magical, it’s just a normal physical test.

The thing about it is that professionals who use it want to sell you very expensive stuff to treat whatever they find. Hoeopathy or supplements or whatever. And this is where it hurts and where I lose faith. They make their money with the stuff they sell, so it’s very easy to take care of someone with a poor health condition desperate to get better.

Which is why I don’t see anyone ising muscle testing anymore. Last one tested me for food intolerance and said I hade SIBO, which I believe is true.
 

pamojja

Senior Member
Messages
2,379
Location
Austria
To my surprise he got very annoyed about himself and didn't charged me for the session, because allegedly to detect a nutrient need one would have to be off all supplementation.
The thing about it is that professionals who use it want to sell you very expensive stuff to treat whatever they find. Hoeopathy or supplements or whatever.

There are black sheep in every trade. And in every trade there are a few who rather take a financial loss, then loose their integrity.

But interestingly till now had 2 consultations only (both covered by quackwatch), which didn't charge anything due to not being able to help. While most my MD consultations couldn't help anything, except being degoratory, but always charged my insurance.
 

caledonia

Senior Member
It does for me. I might skip a certain supplement on a day I will be tested for that particular supplement - because if it's already in my system, getting the dose right might be off a bit. Sort of like someone might stop their thyroid or other med on a day they're getting blood work done. Though I don't always remember to stop a certain supplement on a day I will be tested for it, and it still works pretty well.

But I've never stopped all my supplements to get tested. Just like you wouldn't stop your thyroid med on a day you're getting blood work done for something else.

One other thing I forgot to mention above is that a person can get "reversed", for lack of a better word - they will test weak for "yes" or positive things, and go strong for "no" or negative things. And there's a way to get the reversal reversed as it were.

So that's another reason I recommend that someone knowledgeable and experienced be doing it, and not to just try what you see on youtube, at least until a person is familiar with MT.

I'm curious as to how you do the reversal. There is a reversal procedure in EFT which involves tapping the "karate chop" point, which is on the side of the hand next to the baby finger. Is it similar?
 

Mary

Moderator Resource
Messages
17,293
Location
Southern California
I'm curious as to how you do the reversal. There is a reversal procedure in EFT which involves tapping the "karate chop" point, which is on the side of the hand next to the baby finger. Is it similar?

It involves tapping but is a different procedure - I'll PM you.
 

Mary

Moderator Resource
Messages
17,293
Location
Southern California
Can you give a brief overview of what you do? Trying to figure out if I should spend my time trying this or not. Thanks.

@sb4 - I'd rather not, for the reasons I said above. Also, the method that works for me may not work for someone else. I do think it's best to first have it first done by a knowledgeable person. But - you can google "how to do muscle testing" - there's a ton of info and videos about it on-line and see if anything works for you. And if it doesn't, I wouldn't write it off until you had someone knowledgeable doing it.
 

Mary

Moderator Resource
Messages
17,293
Location
Southern California
The thing about it is that professionals who use it want to sell you very expensive stuff to treat whatever they find. Hoeopathy or supplements or whatever. And this is where it hurts and where I lose faith. They make their money with the stuff they sell, so it’s very easy to take care of someone with a poor health condition desperate to get better.

I'd say some do, some don't. My current chiropractor will recommend things from time to time, and very often I can find a cheaper version. But sometimes I do need what he has. He doesn't pressure me to buy his products and he has been very helpful overall. And actually my visits are covered by insurance for adjustments and he throws in the muscle testing for free.

A few years ago I paid a very well-known ME/CFS doctor over $1,000 out-of-pocket for 2 visits (one via phone) and he was not able to do anything for me apart from recommending I increase my ALA and CoQ10, though he didn't try to sell me any supplements. We pay MDs thousands and thousands of dollars after getting no help from them but they're not called "quacks". Double standard anyone?
 
Messages
71
Location
Metro Atlanta, Ga
Hi @Mary Thanks for sharing. You are a brave soul. I finally learned to MT last Dec 2017 after trying for a long time. I learned by testing myself against an experienced friend in a health store. So far, I've just learned to test my supplements but that has been a great help. No more guessing. It really feels like a new freedom. I discovered in Dec that I was severely deficient in thiamine and have been working hard to replete it. I test myself every morning as to how much thiamine I need for the day and also test for other things I am watching closely.
 

Mary

Moderator Resource
Messages
17,293
Location
Southern California
Hi @Mary Thanks for sharing. You are a brave soul. I finally learned to MT last Dec 2017 after trying for a long time. I learned by testing myself against an experienced friend in a health store. So far, I've just learned to test my supplements but that has been a great help. No more guessing. It really feels like a new freedom. I discovered in Dec that I was severely deficient in thiamine and have been working hard to replete it. I test myself every morning as to how much thiamine I need for the day and also test for other things I am watching closely.

I'm so glad it's working for you! I do the exact same thing - I test myself on everything I take and when in doubt, I go see my chiropractor. It does feel like a new freedom. I really don't think I would have been able to make the progress I have without it.

FYI, when I first started taking thiamine, it did boost my energy noticeably but then it depleted my phosphorous, I think I mentioned this above - but with the help of my trusty MT, I was able to remedy this and keep taking the thiamine which I did NOT want to stop.

Thanks for posting :thumbsup:
 

Learner1

Senior Member
Messages
6,305
Location
Pacific Northwest
Thanks for being brave enough to post..I've known people who swear by muscle testing.

I've had it done by two knowledgeable practitioners and felt rather silly and gained nothing from the experience. My mom was hooked up to a machine where she held a little dumbbell in one hand and the supplements sat on a metal disk, and they switched the machine on and it made the noise and made a graph. That seemed silly too.

I can't figure out what would make MT work. I have come a long way with lab testing and believe in it...its better than guessing. Plus you can figure outcpatterns and see nuances in the data. But if its helpful to you, then go for it!
 

Mary

Moderator Resource
Messages
17,293
Location
Southern California
Hi @Learner1 - If I had access to the medical care that you do, I would get more blood work done. But I've been unable to find a doctor in my area who knows anything about ME/CFS. The closest is at least 2 hours away, plus they generally don't take medicare, so I couldn't afford them anyways. And also my body changes so quickly, often day to day and I couldn't run to the doctor every time I had an unexpected sort of fatigue, etc. I'd be there every week!

About the machine and your mom, I have no opinion. I don't know what it was. There are so many things out there now. What I'm referring to here is where a practitioner will press on a muscle (often the arm) and see if it goes weak or strong in presence of a particular substance. They also do one more thing which has been very valuable to me - they will touch certain points (corresponding to acupuncture meridians) and press on my arm at the same time to determine if there are problems in various parts of the body. So if I was trying to figure out if, say, a particular fatigue was related to my adrenals, or I was sick, or low in potassium, or detoxing, etc., the MT has helped figure it out.

I want to stress again I am not suggesting people rely solely on muscle testing to find out what's going on with them. If they have a good doctor who's willing to work with them, great. But so many of us don't. Also though the MT can pick up problems before they become acute - e.g., gallbladder issues before your gallbladder has to be removed.

I'm afraid to say too much here (probably already have!) But it's always made sense to me that our muscles would go weak in the presence of a negative (a lie, or a poison etc.) and strong in the presence of something positive. And again though, I didn't "believe" in muscle testing when I first tried it. I didn't care how it worked. I just wanted to see if it could help. And it did.
 

Learner1

Senior Member
Messages
6,305
Location
Pacific Northwest
The machine my mom got hooked up to was called a Voll machine. Her drugs and supplements went on a plate and she held a little dumbbell in her hand, both connected by wires to the machine. It seems to be controversial.

I found this article which describes the science behind muscle testing. It notes that it is best done by a knowledgeable practitioner, which you seem to have.

http://prevent-doc.com/a-scientific...d-energy-medicine-robert-a-erickson-m-d-2014/

Dietrich Klinghardt's assistant did it on me, and I'm assuming she knew what she was doing. I didn't feel that manipulating my arm was the best test for me, I tend to resist when being pulled upon.

I'm glad it's been a helpful tool for you, and worth bringing up as an option. We need a lot of tools in our tool box tonight this disease.
 

CedarHome

Senior Member
Messages
131

Thanks for the link- interesting!

Yesterday I had a visceral massage session with a highly skilled therapist. Previous treatments have been very effective in addressing abdominal adhesions and lymphatic drainage (after each session, I have a lot of fatigue for a few days, then baseline is notably improved afterwards.)

Yesterday she pulled a "Lyme vial" out of the closet and had me hold it while doing a "desensitization" along various parts of my body- interspersed with what she called muscle testing. I would have scoffed and called this Quack Time if it were not for my prior experience with her.

She says she uses a variation on this technique to tell when leftovers should be tossed, even if she just cooked yesterday and they SEEM fine, much to the chagrin of her teenagers :lol: