32 of 40 chronically ill have spirochetes in their blood

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Another study and a similar result. 8 patients with ME / CFS and 3 other people were suspected that they had Lyme disease. 10 of 11 had already been tested for Lyme disease in healthcare. All had negative results. All were subjected to dark field microscopy. In the film you can see that all have spirochetes in their blood. And this is a real good microscope.

Read more here
 

Biarritz13

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I looked into some french Lyme forum for things related to this. Some people that were negative for both Lyme tests conducted this same study, at home or at a vet practice and it was positive, they saw these spirochetes.
 

roller

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how could this be technically explained?

how can spirochetes be 'overlooked' when looking for them?
were they too small, too few, something very different with them than usual spirochetes?
something wrong with some solution the lab may have used?
previous negative probands have something in common (sex, blood type...)?
user error ?
if these arent spirochetes, what could be the closest thing they are?

the hungarian guy who did this special test should have some ideas?

this test should be inferior to the standard tests, as the 'gießen' study from the previous page suggest, when i understood this right...
 
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Biarritz13

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For those interested and even if it's in french, it could be interesting to watch a part of this documentary.
Please start to watch at 14:58 min. You can see a young man with chronic fatigue, completely lost, he decided to buy a microscope in order to know if there was any spirochetes in his blood, which he found.


I don't know how it works elsewhere but in France the Elisa test allows only 5% of positive results for each region...
 
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I am convinced that a subgroup of ME/CFS has lyme disease. In this article you can read it can be as many as 88-95% who have Lyme disease. You should not ignore the fact that there may be an option for some.

http://www.perthnow.com.au/news/wes...886911487?nk=efce142df433871d387ebf5d6e044429



Interview with Professor Kenny De Meirleir about Lyme disease

Listen from about 32.30 min into the audio file.

KDM says:

- CFS and late stage of Lyme's is basically the same thing

- Genetics plays a role if you will get sick or not

- Several has Lyme disease, but do not develop symptoms

- Bartonella (Co-infection) is more common than you think, there are more varieties.

The antibody tests available today are substandard

We have much to learn

Audio file:
http://www.thedrpatshow.com/shows/mak-141001-van-dromme.mp3
 

roller

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perhaps they could draw blood from foot arch/side - if there are no obvious objections, medically/technially.
its the most fav hangout and imo there could be the highest density in the body (of all fluid/pathogen at a time).

by any chance from the RIGHT one.

(perhaps lefties from the left?)
 
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Just a few things. Did they culture what they found under the microscope. If not, it's a bit premature to label the organisms as spirochetes and then go on and speculate that it is borrelia or another Lyme related bacteria.

From reading on PR and other websites, I was under the impression that borrelia is found in such low numbers in fluids and tissue that it requires many many hours to do a good search of just a few mm of tissue. I have read repeatedly that finding Lyme bacteria under a microscope is like looking for a needle in a haystack.

Obviously, there is something on the images. Are they spirochetes -- they seem to be a bit indistinct but I know very little about that. When there is direct observation of an organism via microscopy, it is impossible to determine the species just by looking at it. I believe live blood cell analysis is not currently used as a worthwhile diagnostic lab test because it reveals very little diagnostic information. Can it be used to diagnose -- no, unless you go on to determine what the organism actually is. Can it be used to treat -- no, because you have to know what organism it is first to provide proper treatment.

I have the same question. How did this group find it so easily while others cannot
I think this is a very important question. One would think if it was a test that could be helpful in diagnosis of lyme it would be widely used already

During centrifugation, the plasma separates from the blood cells. Experience shows that any spirochetes, if available, accumulate in the area between the plasma and blood cells. Precisely this is important to remember! Titti was mad at me because I revealed this method. But, I think it is important that everyone learns. The accumulation of "middle" is placed under a microscope (darkfield). Then we can see if there are spirochetes or not.
Are you talking about 'Quantitative Buffy Coat Analysis' -- this has been used before in looking for syphilis, malaria etc. -- eg for rapid diagnosis. I have seen slides of that and the spirochetes for syphilis look distinctly like spirochetes.

It's all very interesting. If these people whose blood was tested have some kind of microorganism in their blood, the next step would be to find out what that microorganism is or what exactly it is that we are looking at. Is it borrelia or related, is it something else? Is it something unique to patients in Sweden etc, etc.

Abstract
PURPOSE:
The purpose of this study is to investigate whether chronically ill people without known biomarkers (n=40), may have abnormalities in their blood compared to healthy people (n=5).

MATERIALS AND METHODS:
Venous blood is centrifuged to separate plasma and blood cells. The liquid in the area between the plasma and blood cells is sucked up with a pipette. Then it is centrifuged again and finally applied to a glass lens for microscope (dark field), 800 x magnification.

A diagnostic checklist was used with 75 (77 in swedish) questions of symptoms. At least 20 positive answers are believed to increase an active Lyme infection, except in cases erythema migrans occurs (can often sole basis for diagnosis).

RESULTS: In the group of chronically ill were spirochetes detected in the blood of 32 patients (80%) of the 40. None of the healthy subjects showed any abnormalities in the blood. Of the participants, 31 had diagnosis ME/CFS. Spirochetes were detected in the blood of 27 patients (87%).

CONCLUSION: Spirochetes are very common in some group of patients, especially with diagnosis ME/CFS.
I know this is a private study. I have only read the abstract. The purpose of the study was to investigate 'chronically ill people without known biomarkers that might have abnormalities in their blood compared to healthy people. The results seems to indicate that there is something in the blood of the "unhealthy" people.

Question -- how did they make the leap to that it was 'spirochetes' that they were looking at because they don't appear to look like spirochetes? Did they do any further tests to determine the DNA of the organisms?

I think for any meaningful results, one would have to do further analysis before naming the organism. Are there any plans to do this? Sorry if I missed anything in this thread, I have only glossed over it.
 
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It's simple and you know the answer: because the standard tests for Lyme have been proven to miss up to 50% of true positives. It's a testing method that was initially designed for keeping statistics on the bizarre disease that was spreading in Lyme, CT in the late 70s, but was adopted for clinical diagnosis despite how faulty they are.

Let me reverse it: since the tests have been proven to be unreliable and wrecked countless people's lives because of late detection and delayed treatment, why keep relying on them? Why does it seem impossible to get past these unreliable tests? You have also decried any new methodologies that seem more sensitive (like IgeneX or LTT). Why so much reliance on a proven faulty test?

Mind you, I'm not defending the study that's the subject of this thread. I'm curious about it, and would like to see a follow up since it's not the first time I heard that many CFS patients in Europe are now testing positive for Borrelia. And there's something definitely squiggling around in that video!

I would certainly love other countries to take the lead on this research, away from the usual suspects, literally thinking outside the box, even if it involves blood cultures.
I agree
 
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@Jonathan Edwards In my case Titti said that it looks similar to borrelia garinii and gemmaform(cyst). But its not a diagnosis so i cant really say i have that. But its highly probable. I havent sent test to any labs abroad. I had 3 negative elisa tests during a 8 year period which showed nothing. I did one Elisa test 2 weeks after the microscopy which was also negative. I haven't sent tests to other labs but i know of people who did and confirmed borrelia @ arminlabs. So person had spirochete like things and cysts in blood and confirmed by tests.

But i hope i will soon have been able to fully recover. Will probably do a new test in the near future with Dark Field Microscopy to see what kind of progress I have made.
 
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I just wanted to point out that Borrelia Burgdorferi is not the only spirochete that leads to Lyme and Lyme-like illnesses. They have officially identified 12 (including Borreli Garini, Miyamotoii, Afzelii, and now Mayonii), although some researchers like Dr. McDonald have identified even more forms of borrelia. The standard Lyme tests only identify Burgdorferi, not the other variations (although sometimes they tested positive for Mayonii, which is how they identified this new bug recently).

I fear that a follow up Lyme PCR for the squiggly bugs on those DFM videos may still come up negative, since it's very specific for Burgdorferi only. If that bug is any other variation of borrelia, it's likely to not detect it.
 
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msf

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You can read about the bad lyme test here
Sensitivity is 5 - 25% in actual practice -PCR
Sensitivity is 43% in actual practice - ELISA

http://www.aonm.org/assets/dr.-armin-schwarzbach-aonm-lifting-the-veil.pdf

Remember - the firts lyme spirochete was detected in a microscope...
Was the medical history of the patients recorded? If they had good reason to believe they might have Lyme (like a history of tick bites, etc), then the results would be less surprising.

It would be great if all the patients involved in this study could have the LTT-ELISPOT done.
 

msf

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Also, the fact that spirochetes have apparently been found does not mean that they can not be Borrelia (although I admire the seemingly paradoxical logic of that supposition), they could just be a species of Borrelia that is not well researched - such as Borrelia Mayonii, which has just been reported to cause Borreliosis with ´unusually high spirochaetemia.´
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?term=borrelia+mayonii
 

duncan

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You'd think there'd be a microscopy template of some sort that could reliably identify spirochetes, and then distinguish between them.

If there isn't, there needs to be.
 

Dufresne

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For those interested and even if it's in french, it could be interesting to watch a part of this documentary.
Please start to watch at 14:58 min. You can see a young man with chronic fatigue, completely lost, he decided to buy a microscope in order to know if there was any spirochetes in his blood, which he found.


I don't know how it works elsewhere but in France the Elisa test allows only 5% of positive results for each region...
It's quite interesting this guy's "borrelia" at 16:30 looks a lot like the one @matsli found. Replication might just happen.
 
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Hello by the way...

@Jonathan Edwards In my case Titti said that it looks similar to borrelia garinii and gemmaform(cyst). But its not a diagnosis so i cant really say i have that. But its highly probable. I havent sent test to any labs abroad. I had 3 negative elisa tests during a 8 year period which showed nothing. I did one Elisa test 2 weeks after the microscopy which was also negative. I haven't sent tests to other labs but i know of people who did and confirmed borrelia @ arminlabs. So person had spirochete like things and cysts in blood and confirmed by tests.

But i hope i will soon have been able to fully recover. Will probably do a new test in the near future with Dark Field Microscopy to see what kind of progress I have made.
Short History:
My girlfriend got sick in November 2014 with high fever and a not normal tiredness (was asleep 22-23h/day). She got better in January 2015 but she wasn´t able to work at all.

By June 2015 she was so ill that we had to take her to the emergency health care. They couldn¨t help her. All the test show normal values and examinations of her didn¨t reveal anything.
During (1 month) the summer she reduce her weight from 62 kg to 48 kg and the doctors didn´t know what to do with her. We tried to get our doctor to let us go to Stora Sköndal (ME/CFS Clinic in Stockholm) but they were having a hard time to get us in there. (Still waitng for the first meeting).

In November 2015 I got in contact with Matsli at the FB-Group he had started for ME/CFS-people in Sweden.
Thru his group I managed to get in contact with Titti at Dalapraktiken and she came home to me and my Girlfriend to do the live blood analysis.

At this time My girlfriend had done 5 Elisa-tests (4 serum and 1 Spinal Fluid) all came back with Negative results. She has also manage to do 1 PCR-test on Spinal-Fluid that was negative as well.

The 12th of February did Titti find spirochetes (Borrelia garnii?) gemmaform (cyst) but also Mycoplasmosis, Anaplasmosis and maybe Rickettsia during the analysis.
Blood samples from this day is sent to Swedish Laboratory to be sure what it´s in my girlfriends body.

There will be more testing on her blood soon but then it will be sent to Armin Labs in Germany for a second opinion.

My girlfriend is bound to her bed 24/7 she can´t do nothing by her self anymore...
She turned 30 years old the 25 December 2015 and we have 2 kids that are 4y and 7y old. It´s really hard to see the person you love get to the point where they don´t want to live anymore because of the illness and the struggeling to get well when you don´t get any help from the health care system.

She is one of the people in the test that Matsli and Titti has done... Hopefully this will be a turning-point for our little family.

Thank you Mats!
 
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Hello by the way...



Short History:
My girlfriend got sick in November 2014 with high fever and a not normal tiredness (was asleep 22-23h/day). She got better in January 2015 but she wasn´t able to work at all.

By June 2015 she was so ill that we had to take her to the emergency health care. They couldn¨t help her. All the test show normal values and examinations of her didn¨t reveal anything.
During (1 month) the summer she reduce her weight from 62 kg to 48 kg and the doctors didn´t know what to do with her. We tried to get our doctor to let us go to Stora Sköndal (ME/CFS Clinic in Stockholm) but they were having a hard time to get us in there. (Still waitng for the first meeting).

In November 2015 I got in contact with Matsli at the FB-Group he had started for ME/CFS-people in Sweden.
Thru his group I managed to get in contact with Titti at Dalapraktiken and she came home to me and my Girlfriend to do the live blood analysis.

At this time My girlfriend had done 5 Elisa-tests (4 serum and 1 Spinal Fluid) all came back with Negative results. She has also manage to do 1 PCR-test on Spinal-Fluid that was negative as well.

The 12th of February did Titti find spirochetes (Borrelia garnii?) gemmaform (cyst) but also Mycoplasmosis, Anaplasmosis and maybe Rickettsia during the analysis.
Blood samples from this day is sent to Swedish Laboratory to be sure what it´s in my girlfriends body.

There will be more testing on her blood soon but then it will be sent to Armin Labs in Germany for a second opinion.

My girlfriend is bound to her bed 24/7 she can´t do nothing by her self anymore...
She turned 30 years old the 25 December 2015 and we have 2 kids that are 4y and 7y old. It´s really hard to see the person you love get to the point where they don´t want to live anymore because of the illness and the struggeling to get well when you don´t get any help from the health care system.

She is one of the people in the test that Matsli and Titti has done... Hopefully this will be a turning-point for our little family.

Thank you Mats!
Jonas, I hope your wife will get healhy soon!
 

Strawberry

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@matsli Is your wife and others in the group (like Jonas) all sudden onset and severe? I'm curious because there are so many different "types" of CFS. I am wondering if this is something I should look into or not. I have been sick for 20 years, but can still work full time, although that is ALL I can do now. No housekeeping, very little cooking, etc. So I am different enough that I may not be in the same ME/CFS group as your small test group. I feel I wouldn't have these spirochetes in my blood, but just wanted to ask anyway. I leave no stone unturned until I find out what I have!

Best of luck to all in your group, I hope soon this can be lab confirmed, and treatments received! Any "group" that can be removed from the ME/CFS group and given an official diagnosis is heaven to me.