20 out of 10 to NHS! Set To Ban Smoking On Hospital Grounds

[golden]

@golden l talking about hormones that surge through the body when one is under extreme stress like when quitting an addiction. When you are adding powerful chem. icals, the result could overule the benefits of removing nicotine. I quit a smoking addiction myself but know that it has to be at the right time when nothing else is going on othwise failing just adds to your problems.

I have read the physical withdrawal symptoms are only 48 hrs...

perhaps like with my Father you have already spent that time having undergone major surgery ...

The body adapts to much more intense treatments and traumas such as the harsh chemo drugs etc. in co
nicotine patches will no doubt be used too...

but i agree with the cold turkey approach as my Father did it this way... although he did go to sugar then i think - so not that cold...

Best
Golden

 

[peggy-sue]

I have no intention of stopping.
I don't even like warm turkey, far less cold!
I was resigned to being a smoker all my life, much as though I hated many aspects of it. (just not the actual doing of it. It was MY dirty little habit, all mine!) I couldn't even stand somebody else's smoke.

Nicotine is a mild stimulant, not dissimilar to caffeine, which I also have no intention of stopping.

hey MeSci - respect on dealing with such a nightmare a whole 3 times!

I've done valium cold turkey, after being on massive doses. (I went completely off my head)
I've done the booze, also cold turkey, although I did cut down for a few days beforehand, and had been dry for 11 days before going in to rehab.
But I didn't manage the hat trick when it came to the ciggies.

I still can't cope with either valium or booze. I still get urges.

 

[leela]

Okay, so I can see not adding tobacco withdrawal to the rigours of a hospital stay....but hospital staff actively encouraging smoking, and smoking more? I mean, isn't this what fricking nicotine patches are for? I find this both bizarre and appalling, especially when the patch solution is so completely available in that setting.

 

[peggy-sue]

Nicotine patches don't work well. Neither does gum.
That's why "nicotine replacement therapy" is so popular with big pHarma. Lots of money, loads and loads of the stuff sold. If they worked, big pHarma would loose money in the end.

 

[golden]

Golden, I promise I wont use my thing if you are anywhere near, just to please you, though

- not because I believe I'd be putting you at any risk whatsoever.

Addiction is a real problem for science or medicine to even define. I do believe the definition has been changed, because the old one, when used, made it absolutely clear that sugar and oxygen were addictive, but that LSD and cannabis are not. I suspect cocaine wasn't either.
They had to redefine it so that they could include the things they want to be defined as addictive.

But, gettting back to your point.

I disagree about the hospital grounds being smoke free. Hospitals are often set in acres and acres of grounds - it would take up too much staff time to get outwith the grounds during breaks.

But only with the condition that NO non smokers are exposed to it.

We do need to put an end to the dreadful smog in doorways.

Yes my mother and i had some nice walks with our dog on hospital grounds.

On the point of it taking too much time to get off hospital grounds for all the fag breaks , I agree.

Therefore these medics would have to be smoke free during their whole shift, breaks too.

There are plenty of office staff who have had to adjust to this too.

I also agree with 'Healer heal thyself first'

I think staff woulsd be helping their patients a lot by walking the path themselves.

I know my Mother used medics as an excuse not to quit as she discovered they themselves smoked. She then laughed at them for their advice.
edit : yes after my father quit, this changed the dynamics considerably. My Mother did kind of try and went to a group. This group did try to support her in quitting.

All other medics, as i said , supported her in smoking etc.

I think maybe she thought smoking was who she was?



Best
Golden

 

[golden]

I have no intention of stopping.
I don't even like warm turkey, far less cold!
I was resigned to being a smoker all my life, much as though I hated many aspects of it. (just not the actual doing of it. It was MY dirty little habit, all mine!) I couldn't even stand somebody else's smoke.

Nicotine is a mild stimulant, not dissimilar to caffeine, which I also have no intention of stopping.

hey MeSci - respect on dealing with such a nightmare a whole 3 times!

I've done valium cold turkey, after being on massive doses. (I went completely off my head)
I've done the booze, also cold turkey, although I did cut down for a few days beforehand, and had been dry for 11 days before going in to rehab.
But I didn't manage the hat trick when it came to the ciggies.

I still can't cope with either valium or booze. I still get urges.

No, I was not in the slightest suggest that you stop smoking.


Best
Golden

 

[golden]

The body is in trauma when it is ill or injured.

Its doing its utmost to regain homeostasis.

What I am weighing up is when supporting the body in its healing process its

Nicotine withdrawl Vs http://www.care2.com/greenliving/the-shocking-ingredients-in-cigarettes.html

 

[MeSci]

My mother was PRESCRIBED to start smoking when she was 27ish. She had escsped the habit til then. Looking back, I think she had a thyroid problem.

I believe that people with some conditions were once advised to smoke, which seems mad now, but the tobacco industry and their PR people went to a lot of trouble to brainwash everyone into viewing cigarettes positively. See here for example. I hate those evil bastards who effectively killed my mother.

Doctors will not have been immune to the propaganda.

That said, the doctor I had as a child also smoked like a chimney and stank of booze. But I think he was actually one of the best doctors I've had!

 

[MeSci]

However, that article does go on with that old myth, that what smokers want is the "hand to mouth action".
Utter nonsense!

When you are eating, is your pleasure derived from cutting your food up, putting it on your fork and lifting it to your mouth?

Or do you like the taste and texture and flavour in your mouth (have a look at a sensory homunculus and see how important the mouth is compared to the rest of the body.
This one only maps out the sense of touch. It doesn't do taste and smell, I don't think.
http://sciencedefined.wordpress.com/2012/01/31/the-skin-is-also-a-map/

What folk like about smoking is the taste and the mouth feel. The way it hits the back of your throat, followed by a sense of relief of the exhalation.

This is what e-cigarettes provide. The right physical feeling in the mouth and throat.

I think that people may vary in what drives them to smoke. I remember, when I was trying to quit, having a crazy idea about having a miniature piano to get out and play when I got the urge to smoke! I think it might have helped if I'd got one, but not sure how it would have gone down in public...

 

[MeSci]

I studied addiction as part of my Master's degree. I don't know whether current knowledge has improved a lot on what I learned, as ME put paid to further studies or a career, but the basics were that propensity to addiction could depend on the structure of the neuronal synapses, of which there is a diagram here.

Different people may have wider or narrower synaptic gaps, or greater or lesser release of neurotransmitters, or greater or lesser receptor activity. This will be partly genetically determined, but can also be altered by lifestyle, experience, etc. An interesting example of experience and environment affecting the tendency to addiction was of Vietnam veterans having been addicted to opiates while in Vietnam but losing the addiction rapidly on returning home.

There will be numerous other factors involved, such as electrolyte levels and pH.

It is much too simplistic to view it as merely a matter of willpower or moral fibre, and there is bound to be variation in the speed at which addiction (physical and mental) declines.

 

[peggy-sue]

I crammed in as much that I could that was related to addiction (and stress and depression, and anything I could relate to behaviour) during my degree too.

I did find it interesting, coming from being a drug addict, to see what academia had to say about it.
(Alcoholics are drug addicts. Alcohol is a drug)

I felt they were pretty clueless.
One time I did use my own personal experience to refute a point in an assignment.

I got hauled over the coals for "using personal experience". My point was dismissed on those grounds!
"We don't study abnormality here, we study the mind and normality"

I don't know about genetic differences in synaptic gaps or levels of neurotransmitters. I have always felt that my problems stem from the actual structure of my brain as it developed from when I was a baby - because of my mother hating me from the very beginning.
I feel it comes from what I learned about myself, emotionally.


There is a lot to be said for the environment surrounding an addict and how that impacts the drug seeking behaviour, I know about the vets who were able to stop, when they got back from Vietnam.

So from that point of view, it would be easier to stop smoking in a different environment.
But I'm not convinced that hospital, when already under duress, is a suitably appropriate place.

I certainly took advantage of that to knowledge to help me with the booze.
I had cut down for a few days, by being away camping with Michael.
I had my date for going into rehab.
I had managed to get the withdrawal reduced in its intensity.
The whole point was that I wasn't ever going to do it again.

So I asked Michael if I could come and stay at his house. I knew it would be far easier to stay off it there than in my own house.
So I stayed with him and got competely dry there. I wasn't even tempted by the bottles of booze he had in his cupboards. They were his, not mine.

I used being away to help convert to electric ciggies too.

 

[MeSci]

I crammed in as much that I could that was related to addiction (and stress and depression, and anything I could relate to behaviour) during my degree too.

I did find it interesting, coming from being a drug addict, to see what academia had to say about it.
(Alcoholics are drug addicts. Alcohol is a drug)

I felt they were pretty clueless.
One time I did use my own personal experience to refute a point in an assignment.

I got hauled over the coals for "using personal experience". My point was dismissed on those grounds!
"We don't study abnormality here, we study the mind and normality"

I don't know about genetic differences in synaptic gaps or levels of neurotransmitters. I have always felt that my problems stem from the actual structure of my brain as it developed from when I was a baby - because of my mother hating me from the very beginning.
I feel it comes from what I learned about myself, emotionally.


There is a lot to be said for the environment surrounding an addict and how that impacts the drug seeking behaviour, I know about the vets who were able to stop, when they got back from Vietnam.

So from that point of view, it would be easier to stop smoking in a different environment.
But I'm not convinced that hospital, when already under duress, is a suitably appropriate place.

I certainly took advantage of that to knowledge to help me with the booze.
I had cut down for a few days, by being away camping with Michael.
I had my date for going into rehab.
I had managed to get the withdrawal reduced in its intensity.
The whole point was that I wasn't ever going to do it again.

So I asked Michael if I could come and stay at his house. I knew it would be far easier to stay off it there than in my own house.
So I stayed with him and got competely dry there. I wasn't even tempted by the bottles of booze he had in his cupboards. They were his, not mine.

I used being away to help convert to electric ciggies too.

So that's how you got your claws into Michael..

One of my addiction-kicking attempts involved a holiday on a remote island. I was fine while there, and eating three breakfasts a day and regaining much-needed weight, but I started using again soon after getting back home. I needed help from a doctor in the end in the form of tranquillisers. It worked by taking the edge off the craving.

 

[peggy-sue]

Poor Michael had my claws in him from the moment I laid my eyes on him.
He was dancing away to the Waterboys, jig-a-jigging like mad, so full of pure, unadulterated joy that my heart lept.
I wanted some of that joy. That was what had been missing from my life, all my life.
And he was wearing a CND badge on his jacket.

He just didn't know I had my claws in him. I did.

He gave me a reason to want to live, he was worth quitting the booze for.
I wanted to be with him, learn how to share that joy in life MORE than I wanted to continue to drink.

I use to go back to Edinburgh and stay with my (still drinking and viciously alcoholic parents) to get off the booze, occassionally.

I hit the off-license on my way home - after being off it for up to 4 weeks.

I used the rehab experience to help me learn how to stay off it. I did get temazepan when I was there, to "help" sleep. It didn't. I was on carbamazepine, because I had had withdrawal fits. I stayed on that for about 3 years after quitting, just in case.

But taking up new hobbies with Michael, him taking up new ones with me, and being with a new crowd of lovely folk who drank, but only sociably, not getting wasted, was a new sort of life to get into - one in which I didn't do any drinking. I also took up OU, to give me something to do in the evenings.

He was incredibly supportive. Stuck with me for 3 years before I did, finally, quit for good.

We do seem to have wandered quite far from the point Golden was making, about the banning of cigarettes in public grounds of a hospital.

But making the point about what a complicated thing addiction is, is relevant, I believe.

Those who don't "get it" are far too quick to say;
"Give them cold turkey, teach the b***ards a lesson, force them to be "normal" like us".

When it is the living nightmare of "reality" that drives somebody to take something to alleviate it.

 

[golden]

I have heard that juicing really helps alcoholics quit. Not only is it repleneshing the body with vits and mins but its also a good addiction to get into. The original founder of AA was heavily based on nutrition which got scrapped.

I note Caledonia points to Cranberry juice for helping with smoking cravings .

This is my point , I think its would be an award winning idea , to have juice bars in hospitals. This could be one of the juice bar chains or an NHS brand.

I would love to see that

Best
Golden

 

[golden]

Peggy sue

Just going to read your post now...

we have cross-posted AGain!!! Lol

 

[peggy-sue]

About the only thing that had any taste for me when I quit the booze was grapefruit.
Tinned grapefruit and grapefruit juice. I lived on that for weeks, with a bit of yoghurt for protein and other vitamins.

It took a long time for my sense of taste, or interest in food, to come back.

But you are correct Golden - juice bars instead of those ghastly banks of revolting fizzy things available in hospitals would be good.
As would cafes with decent food, rather than more of the multinational burger chains.

 

[golden]

"Those who don't "get it" are far too quick to say;
"Give them cold turkey, teach the b***ards a lesson, *force* them to be "normal" like us".

There have been a few comments along these lines , on moral judgements and pious...

the original article had the pro - smoker state yhe stance was 'cold-hearted'

But I cant stress enough that, its not about any of that for me.

Personally I feel the key is closing and locking the door to addiction.

There will then be a period of adjustment. I think zen meditation would be the best way. But everyone has their own techniques.

I recall the smokers grumbling and causing a stink (lol) when they began having a designated smoking area , still inside, of pubs and restaurants.

'but i like to smoke whilst i eat' 'i dont likely sitting in others smoke when i eat'

but that was what happened and that seriously was considered a compromise!!!!

This is what happens when a blind eye is turned and things get tipped so far out of balance, putting it right , which is what i see this hospital iniative as doing in my opinion...

causes these strong feelings.

The NHS has actually been spending thousands of pounds creating these bus shelters for smokers to go into outside! I think before that was smoking WITHIN the hospital itself.

I would be fascinated in reading any psychological studies done on the dynamics of the smoker/non-smoker relationships between patients and medics.

Its is like a little naughty gang - but I also recall my Mother stating she had been smoking loads more also because PATIENTS kept on asking her out'

'are you coming for a cig with me/us'

it was something she didn't want to be left out from and also of course, something to do...


Best
Golden

 

[golden]

About the only thing that had any taste for me when I quit the booze was grapefruit.
Tinned grapefruit and grapefruit juice. I lived on that for weeks, with a bit of yoghurt for protein and other vitamins.

It took a long time for my sense of taste, or interest in food, to come back.

But you are correct Golden - juice bars instead of those ghastly banks of revolting fizzy things available in hospitals would be good.
As would cafes with decent food, rather than more of the multinational burger chains.

Yeah they have Costa everywhere here.

Better would be a cafe with nourishing home made soups and bone broths.

In the Cancer hospital Cafe I was stunned when I got ASKED do I want that heated up in the microwave or grill.

It was cos lots of Cancer patients had created a demand of the grill and refused microwave stuff.

Best
Golden

 

[Undisclosed]

golden -- I think a smoker may only understand how withdrawal from nicotine actually feels. I used to smoke -- a lot. I think going the route of juicing would only work if paired up with a strong desire to quit and a whole bunch of other interventions.

When patients go into the hospital it is quite difficult if they are a smoker. I remember back in the day (1990s) where each floor of the hospital I worked in (London, Ontario) had a smoking room with powerful hepafilters and fans, so the smoke wouldn't get out of the room. Staff had to go to a trailer equipped with the same things to smoke. I don't know what there is now. Another small town hospital banned smoking completely but added a similar smoking room for psychiatric patients on the psychiatric floor just because many patients on forms were not allowed to leave the floor and being forced to quit smoking was not conducive to treatment.

Many patients do not want to quit smoking during a hospital stay or at any other time. When I was nursing any advice I had to offer was based on what the patient wanted i.e., you don't foist quitting smoking on a person who states they don't want to quit. I only discussed health risks related to their hospital stay. I do believe that hospitals should provide alternate forms of nicotine to those who don't have any desire to quit during their hospital stay.

I guess as an ex-smoker or ex-nicotine addict, I also understand the stigma of being a smoker. It's very difficult having people always on to you about having such a bad habit, smelling awful, not having enough will-power to quit and blaming you for being addicted. I think people better understand alcohol and drug addiction and forget that nicotine is a very powerful drug in its own right and how awfully addicting it is. I haven't smoked for over ten years and even so I still get some pretty powerful cravings. I had to chew nicotine gum for years just so I wouldn't go back to smoking. I wish there had been e-cigarettes when I had quit because I went through really bad withdrawals.

 

[peggy-sue]

Actually, Costa isn't one of the really bad ones.
At least they do pay their taxes and source ethically. (as far as I know - unless it's all just propaganda)

I was plain, pure evil the two days I went without cigarettes.

You don't want to be around me when I'm like that.
I don't want to be anywhere near me when I'm like that.

And had two months of (mild, but still with almost complete anhedonia) depression when I converted. (or quit all the extra addictive and antidepressant stuff in them that isn't nicotine).

For a so-called "expert" to say it's out your system and behind you after 48 hours is ludicrous.

It's how psychology operates though - don't listen to those who have had the experiences.

It is all-important to be driven by top-down-theories created by those who have decided they are "normal".