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*2 new* letters, Myra McClue, Annette Whittemore

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Advocate

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MODERATOR: Okay, this is enough. There have been plenty of pleas and warnings about this ongoing feud. Two moderators have become involved and we are receiving endless complaints about the constant bickering. I am closing the thread if there is a single complaint.
I agree with Adam, Parvo and Flybro.

I do not like interference by Kurt and Martlett in what I see as discussions and arguments that will resolve without their involvement. I learn a lot from those arguments.

I do not like what I see as moderators' attacks on Gerwyn--such as the denigration of Gerwyn's university degree by Kurt (since removed).

As for the shadowy complainers who give license to moderators to censor or shut down discussions, who are they? Shouldn't the accused know who their attackers are?

And why are the complainers even reading the discussions they try to shut down? Why don't they start their own discussions? I hereby register a complaint about the complainers.

This is not Yahoo. On Yahoo discussion groups, one has to go to the trouble of scrolling by posts that are of no interest or that one finds offensive. It's so easy on this forum to simply choose a different thread.

Shutting down this thread would create a lot of ill will.

Advocate
 

oerganix

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I agree with Adam, Parvo and Flybro.

I do not like interference by Kurt and Martlett in what I see as discussions and arguments that will resolve without their involvement. I learn a lot from those arguments.

I do not like what I see as moderators' attacks on Gerwyn--such as the denigration of Gerwyn's university degree by Kurt (since removed).

As for the shadowy complainers who give license to moderators to censor or shut down discussions, who are they? Shouldn't the accused know who their attackers are?

And why are the complainers even reading the discussions they try to shut down? Why don't they start their own discussions? I hereby register a complaint about the complainers.

This is not Yahoo. On Yahoo discussion groups, one has to go to the trouble of scrolling by posts that are of no interest or that one finds offensive. It's so easy on this forum to simply choose a different thread.

Shutting down this thread would create a lot of ill will.

Advocate
I too am offended by threats to close threads....for?...bickering???

I'd really like to have a clear idea of what this forum is for. Is it to provide a platform for discrediting WPI and XMRV? If so, I'd like to go somewhere else and take Gerwyn with me. If not, I'd like to know that those who politely create this sort of pseudo-issue can be challenged here without the challenger being ganged up on.

It takes two to create a pissing contest and the other contestant has added nothing to the conversation on the science or the research of XMRV or CFS/ME in general. He constantly threatens to quit the conversation, but only if he gets the last word. I don't see a "feud" here, just another attempt, in a line of them, to paint Gerwyn as the bad guy while giving the provocateur a pass.

I fervently wish that Gerwyn would just ignore him, let him have the last word and never respond to him again. And I think I understand why he doesn't.

So I'm asking you, Gerwyn, to read the weasle words of psuedo-politeness that this forum apparently requires and use them in your posts. Please saturate your posts with appeasing obsequiousness, and beat-around-the-bush phrases so as not to offend those with tender sensitivies to the point that they tattle to momma, leaving out their own provocation and participation in the feud. Or better yet, just ignore them after you've made your points.

In the meantime, the most obvious solution for those who are so offended by the bickering: IGNORE the poster or the thread. Since that is apparently not going to happen, those of us who notice and are offended by the provocateuring need to start complaining to the moderators everytime we see it, since it appears they are keeping "score" and the home team is losing.

Just as was done in the 3 Failure To Find studies, some people are having trouble distinguishing quantity from quality, so we need to get some quantity going...how unfortunate this kind of game playing has to happen here.
 
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Adam, parvo, flybro, Advocate, oerganix and jace (jace, where did your great post go?)

Thank you for clearly expressing some of my opinions. I have started to write on this so many times and had to give up

I tend to be one of the "nicey-nices", and I have a hard time with conflict. However, I have a much harder time with censorship as a solution. We are all adults here.

Here's some wisdom from my favourite t-shirt:

 

Lily

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Adam, parvo, flybro, Advocate, oerganix and jace (jace, where did your great post go?)

Thank you for clearly expressing some of my opinions. I have started to write on this so many times and had to give up

I tend to be one of the "nicey-nices", and I have a hard time with conflict. However, I have a much harder time with censorship as a solution. We are all adults here.

Here's some wisdom from my favourite t-shirt:

I certainly have to agree, and I thought I said as much an hour ago, but do not see the post now.
 

Cort

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Hi oerganix,

I appreciate your brilliant post.

I, too, noticed that Cort referred to Gerwyn as "she," and wondered how Gerwyn felt about that. Is that what you would call "outing?" On another thread, recently, a moderator was so protective of someone's identity--someone who is not even a member of this forum--that she removed parts of several posts.

I, too, have noticed the sexist put-downs of Judy Mikovits and Annette Whittemore by those who would "save us from our false hope."

Advocate
I got it about Gerwyn's gender. I hope HE didn't mind my turning him into a she for a while :)
 

awol

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I think we need not worry anymore about the gender thing. Gerwyn seems quite secure in his femininity. ;)
 

Cort

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Just for the record Cort i have never questioned anyones qualifications.If you care to check my qualifications were always questioned first.By KURT and ERIC as I recall.I recieve a lot more cutting comments than i make.i dont pose as something I am not!

I challenge people pretending that they are presenting facts when they are not.It would be nice if certain people stopped talking pissing rubbish then we could have it all!

Here we go again 'pissing rubbish'!
 

awol

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Here we go again 'pissing rubbish'!
I think Gerwyn, despite gender ambiguity, is CLEARLY a Brit. Offensive language needs to be understood in a cultural context... I think (s)he might not even realize this could be offensive. ;)
 

Cort

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Originally posted by Kurt.

Not sure what you thought you would achieve here Kurt, by posting the above.

I have highlighted what I think are the worst offences. But in all honesty, I did not need to highlight anything as it should be plain to anyone (whoever they feel inclined to support) where the subtle put downs are. Of course, we all know that is a matter of interpretation, and some will not regard the above as offensive or a putdown.

I am concerned about Moderators repeating the same ''fact' that more people complain about Gerwyn's posts than about any other forum member. Disclosing this information is IMO, counter-productive. Gerwyn has become singled out. To be fair and transparent, if we follow the logic of disclosure, then surely we should know the full 'facts' of who is complained about and who is doing the complaining?

Two leagues tables would suffice.

1) League Table of complained about members.

2) League Table of members making complaints.


BTW. I will not complain to anyone Kurt about your style, my interpreation of the subtle nature of your putdowns, your ability/qualifications to comment.

With regards Gerwyn FWIW I do not think he is a saint. However, he appears to be the best qualified person on the forum to interpret the science, by a country mile.
I agree that those comments went too far and I removed them from my post.
 

Cort

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I agree with Adam, Parvo and Flybro.

I do not like interference by Kurt and Martlett in what I see as discussions and arguments that will resolve without their involvement. I learn a lot from those arguments.

I do not like what I see as moderators' attacks on Gerwyn--such as the denigration of Gerwyn's university degree by Kurt (since removed).

As for the shadowy complainers who give license to moderators to censor or shut down discussions, who are they? Shouldn't the accused know who their attackers are?

And why are the complainers even reading the discussions they try to shut down? Why don't they start their own discussions? I hereby register a complaint about the complainers.

This is not Yahoo. On Yahoo discussion groups, one has to go to the trouble of scrolling by posts that are of no interest or that one finds offensive. It's so easy on this forum to simply choose a different thread.

Shutting down this thread would create a lot of ill will.

Advocate
We do protect people privacy who post 'bad posts'; we certainly don't agree with all of them - we take a look at them and try and decide if we should try and do something. Sometimes we don't have the manpower to do anything. Sometimes moderators just don't want to get involved quite frankly :). Maybe we should take a break on this issue....most of Gerwyn's posts are just fine..lets not overdo this.
 

Cort

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I think Gerwyn, despite gender ambiguity, is CLEARLY a Brit. Offensive language needs to be understood in a cultural context... I think (s)he might not even realize this could be offensive. ;)

This too I have heard - that the Brits have a more 'lively' style of discourse. Perhaps similar to New Yorkers. I vividly remember someone from New York asking me if I had a stick up my ass once. I was like what did you say? She said I just asked you if you had a stick up your ass? You look like you were bothered by something. :)

So we have take our cultural differences into account as well; people from the US need to adopt a bit to a more vivid speaking style and the Brits probably could tone it down a little at times.
 

Cort

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Organix - So I'm asking you, Gerwyn, to read the weasle words of psuedo-politeness that this forum apparently requires and use them in your posts. Please saturate your posts with appeasing obsequiousness, and beat-around-the-bush phrases so as not to offend those with tender sensitivies to the point that they tattle to momma, leaving out their own provocation and participation in the feud. Or better yet, just ignore them after you've made your points.

In the meantime, the most obvious solution for those who are so offended by the bickering: IGNORE the poster or the thread. Since that is apparently not going to happen, those of us who notice and are offended by the provocateuring need to start complaining to the moderators everytime we see it, since it appears they are keeping "score" and the home team is losing.

Just as was done in the 3 Failure To Find studies, some people are having trouble distinguishing quantity from quality, so we need to get some quantity going...how unfortunate this kind of game playing has to happen here.
I don't think we're asking for weasel words of politeness but I agree with the jist of it - if someone can't reply to a post without getting personal then try to move onto some other topic. For sure that's not easy.

We are not keeping score - there is no blackboard with a number of tics on with someone's name on them - we all have CFS - we don't have the energy (or the interest) in doing that - we just take them as they come. This is a small group of moderators who handle post reports as best they can. We don't get good post reports; if we did I'm sure Gerwyn would have many'good post' reports as well.
 

Cort

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I agree with Parvo,

I am sick to death of a moderattor dropping in from upon high, making un-informed snap judgements and hounding the memebers that have put so much more work into helping us understand this disease.

Martlett an open statement directly to you, if you cant stand the heat stay out the kitchen, and please stop threatening to close important threads.

You are a main reason I am looking for another forum, your style of moderation in my opinion is consescending.
Flybro I would hate to see you go. You're a valuable member of this forum but Martlett is trying to do what our moderators are supposed to do - which is keep threads from getting personal and argumentative. I understand that its upsetting to see someone come zooming down so to speak - it conjures up all sorts of things but this thread is receiving quite a few complaints and our feeling in general is that they are legitimate and we're trying to work this out as best we can.

Meanwhile we have gotten way off of XMRV...I hope we can get back to that.....
 

MEKoan

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Oerganix said:
So I'm asking you, Gerwyn, to read the weasle words of psuedo-politeness that this forum apparently requires and use them in your posts. Please saturate your posts with appeasing obsequiousness, and beat-around-the-bush phrases so as not to offend those with tender sensitivies to the point that they tattle to momma, leaving out their own provocation and participation in the feud.
OMG! That would be so awful, wouldn't it! Doesn't bear thinking about, really.

I sometimes wonder if I hang around (when I used to hang around) with extraordinarily vivid characters because Gerwyn's style and passion would not go amiss in my old crowd. None would be taking offence or threatening to go home because someone else spoke with emphasis or, when provoked - whether intentionally or not, with impatience. One of my very good friends, an internationally respected journalist, is not above standing on the table if he thinks it will make a point.

I am far more worried about manipulation than any honest expression of ideas and opinion.

Those who are hitting the report button and writing all those complaining PMs are making a very eloquent statement now... with their silence. I think the community has spoken and PR would do well to listen.

Peace out,
Koan
 

Advocate

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...is trying to do what our moderators are supposed to do - which is keep threads from getting personal and argumentative...
Cort,

It's okay if threads get argumentative. It's illuminating if threads get argumentative. We are arguing about life-and-death matters here!

Advocate
 

Martlet

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Cort,

It's okay if threads get argumentative. It's illuminating if threads get argumentative. We are arguing about life-and-death matters here!
Argument is not problematic. Getting personal is. When people sign up to join this forum, as with many others, they are presumably aware of and agree to the rules and that breaches of these rules will be moderated. Now, some might not think that the PMs and reported posts we receive daily are a big deal, but these members who send them are just as important as the rest and we have to spend hours investigating whether or not their complaints are valid. As for telling people who their "accusers" are, I remember that one member let it be known that they had reported a post and that poor member was hounded until they barely dared show their face.

I now see that not only has Kurt intervened on several occasions, but so has Cort, as well as myself. With that in mind, I am closing this discussion until Admin and moderators have reached a conclusion that takes into account the feelings/state of health of ALL our members and not just the few who do most posting.
 
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