2 enlightening fasting experiences

[Mark]

Gosh this thread got very interesting in the last few days! Quick notes, not having caught up on it all...

There's not much I am OK with, food-wise, but oddly two things I am fine with are dairy (milk/cheese) and fruit (or, at least, fruit smoothies). They have been a lifeline. They've always been two of my very favourite food types since childhood, so although I've lost near enough all the rest of my preferred foods (pizza, pasta, and indian food, for example) at least I have those two to fall back on. Only conclusion I would draw is that like all the other immune abnormalities we tend to have, the pattern of sensitivities is very much an individual one, and the commonality lies in the general disruption, but I think that what we are sensitive to is much like a 'fingerprint': it needs individual management, but it doesn't really mean we have significantly different underlying conditions. And that individuality is one of the things that confuses the scientists of course...

The less sleep thing is really interesting, thanks cigana. There's another recent thread on sleep patterns with some similar thoughts which has also been interesting.

You say you've done some extreme fasting - can I ask how long and how often? I'm really interested in fasting...

I guess I probably overstated that a bit. I don't have much worth relating really. Except to say that I quite often eat just one snack a day, like a sandwich (which I shouldn't really have at all of course: wheat) or a few bowls of cereal (which are OK for me), and maybe 2 or 3 days a week I'm skipping a main meal at the moment. But then I make up for it with a substantial meal, which I enjoy more than normal and have less negative reactions to. And finally that I can go 2 or 3 days with almost nothing but fruit smoothies, and barely feel hungry. But that I haven't been having true 100% fasts very much really, and even a 24 hour fast is a pretty extreme thing to do, so I agree with the notes of caution expressed here.

For me, it would be more accurate to have said that relaxing the "rules" on how much I'm supposed to eat, and when, and how much I'm supposed to sleep, and when, have been very positive, and less is definitely more for me in both cases...though how much that will be true for the long term, remains to be seen...

 

[cigana]

Hi Mark,

Yeah I think what you say about it being very individual (but with the same root cause) could be right.

I once heard that the particular combination of bacteria each person has in their guts is so unique to that individual that it could be used as a fingerprint. So my best bet is to say that a large cause of CFS is gut-related and that how that gut-related problem manifests itself in any given individual is dependent on their "bacterial fingerprint" and their genes. For example, the bacterial-fingerprint/genes could decide whether you develop fructose malabsorption or carbohydrate malabsorption or gluten sensitivity or any other sensitivity/malabsorption. I reckon the root cause is increased gut permeability (leaky gut), once you've got that, you've got a recipe for a large number of seemingly unrelated, chronic symptoms.

Cig

 

[Glynis Steele]

Hi Cig,

I totally agree with you on this point. Here is an article (again on my favourite topic dla!) where dietary managment was used to treat the dla.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1792240/pdf/archdisch00665-0081.pdf

The bacteria were assessed to see which source of carbs were being fermented. The bacteria were able to ferment glucose, lactose, maltose and sucrose but not starch. I think it's down to what bacteria species live in an individual, what some people find helpful, others will see no benefit from. DLA does cross the gut and also the blood brain barrier, but studies are vague as to whether it's the dla, or other bacterial metabolites (or both combined) that cause the neurological symptoms, such as extreme lethargy etc.

BW

Glynis

 

[Wayne]

Fasting - Gut Bacteria - Etheric Blueprint...

I once heard that the particular combination of bacteria each person has in their guts is so unique to that individual that it could be used as a fingerprint. So my best bet is to say that a large cause of CFS is gut-related and that how that gut-related problem manifests itself in any given individual is dependent on their "bacterial fingerprint" and their genes.

Hi Cig, Mark, and Glynis,

Good comments regarding individuality of gut bacteria. I often think of how long it took medical researchers to realize bacteria causes ulcers. When I extrapolate on that, I can't help but wonder how many more unknown strains of bacteria cause all sorts of other problems, many of which are common to PWCs.

In Paul Bragg's book, "Miracle of Fasting", he described the tongue as a "magic mirror". His explanation was that the tongue, especially when on a fast, accurately reflects the condition of the stomach and GI tract. I think he said it also reflected the condition of our internal organs as well. Some of his descriptions of black tongue, green tongue, etc. would probably explain much of the differing bacteria present in the gut. Individual food choices, strength of digestion (and more) all probably play a part. I would think this is why acpuncturists pay so much attention to the tongue, as it gives the practitioner lots of relevant information.

An Interesting Tidbit: When I was doing a lot research on fasting many years back, I ran across an old book written by a chiropractor back in the 1950s. He routinely put his patients on long water fasts to help with some very major back problems. He had before and after pictures (X-rays) in this book, that showed almost unbelievable changes in the spine after fasts of 14-21 days.

I remember seeing pictures of extreme curvature of the spine (scoliosis) becoming almost totally aligned after some of these fasts. Who would have thought that fasting could produce these kinds of results? I have a theory about this, though it may sound a bit esoteric for some.

My Own Theory: I heard (read) many years ago that a perfect "etheric blueprint" is immediately formed at the moment of conception. This blueprint is with us as we go through life, always working to bring our bodies back into an alignment of health. But the connection between this blueprint and our bodies can become weakened over time because of injury, infections, etc. I tend to think that when we fast, we reconnect to this blueprint in a more meaningful way. The degree we can do this then significantly affects the degree to which we can shift our state of health.

Besides the physical components of ME/CFS, I've long thought ME/CFS causes (or is a result of) a major disruption in our bioelectrical flows. In this category, I include concepts like meridians, chakras, auras, etc. My best guess is that a big part of the "miracle of fasting" stems from its ability to reconnect some of these stressed energy pathways.

Hope this wasn't too esoteric for some. :Retro smile: I would be interested to hear if others have had similar "musing".

Best, Wayne

 

[cigana]

Hi Glynis,

A very interesting paper indeed, thanks for posting it. This completely throws my understanding. I suppose first of all her results for glucose would not apply to an adult (with an intact jejunum) because it wouldn't normally reach the parts of the intestine where the bacteria reside (and this is why elementel diets based on glucose can eliminate SIBO). But the fact that starch doesn't cause d-lactic acid is strange! Perhaps it's just her particular bacteria that don't (is that what you were saying?). Or perhaps it's just that they may well not produce d-lactic acid, but that doesn't mean they don't thrive on starch and produce other toxins.

So I suppose what every PWC needs is a series of stool tests after being fed various foods and substrates, so they can work out what combinations make their particular bacteria produce the most toxins. There must be a more simple approach...

Cig

 

[Glynis Steele]

Hi Cig,

Yes, I think the gut bacteria is down to the individual, and in this lady's case, starch was ok for her. Here is a good link which says just about all carbs can be fermented to produce dla. It also talks about thiamine deficiency which may lead to dla (I have read this before, that thiamine deficiency can lead to dla) in short bowel patients. It also states that fasting is not good for dla though, so it might be worth a read for you.

http://www.mayoclinicproceedings.com/content/73/5/451.full.pdf+html

I read the same thing in regard to alcoholism. This link does not state the patients had dla, but reading the article and their symptoms, it sounds like it is dla.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wernicke-Korsakoff_syndrome

I love all this dla stuff, it's like therapy being able to talk to you about it, thanks Cig. My best friend Shazzie will no doubtedly be chuffed to bits too that I have someonelse to jibber to, she's had to put up with dla for some years now, I can see her face go blank as soon as I set myself away, though she say's it's 'cos it's too complicated ;-))).

Hope this doesn't frazzle your brain!

Regards

Glynis

 

[Shazzie]

Oo blimey does my face really go blank? (thought I was hiding that well) - No it's really very interesting and also very frustrating for you, Glynis. I only wish the local medics would pay more attention. It is very demoralising.

 

[cigana]

Hi Glynis,

Couldn't comment really on the second link - I suppose it could be DLA as a result, don't know what a search would bring up. I liked the paper you gave, and found it especially interesting that it relates to fasting - could be one of fastings detox symptoms. What I really need to know is how to cure d-lactate acidosis without antibiotics. I know that low-carb diets can help, but they'll only kill you in the long term, so I'd only start that if I could find evidence that people are subsequently able to go on a high-carb diet, and no one mentions if that's possible.

I was also thinking about what to do about the acidosis directly in terms on neutralisation. I know d-lactic acid can't be detected with a urine pH test, but it can be treated with sodium-bicarbonate. I don't want to be taking sodium long-term and in high doses. I know that when I do take it my urine pH becomes alkaline. But I can also ensure my urine pH is alkaline by drinking a vegetable juice I make with its base as celery - a highly alkalising plant. So my question is can this drink also help in d-lactate acidosis and if so I can up the quantity and it certainly would be a very healthy way of comabtting the problem. Secondly I wonder if this juice (and other highly alkalising plants) couldn't be used to kill of the bacteria in the intestine? The study by Caldarini (Abnormal Fecal Flora in Short Bowel Syndrome) seems to suggest this might be possible because the Lactobacilli died off as they increased the pH of the medium. So I might try this as "treatment" - focussing on highly-alkalising plants (that are low in fructose of course) in juice form (so that they are also low in fibre)....

Cheers

Cig

 

[Glynis Steele]

Hi Cig,

Please let me know how you get on, if you try this.

All the best

Glynis

 

[cigana]

Hi Glynis,

Of course I will! I came off my elemental diet last night and made a soup with lots of celery, this morning my urine pH was highly alkaline - looks like it's working too well...By the way I too can easily induce that glazed-over look in my family and friends!

Cig

 

[Cloud]

No wonder I crave a highly alkaline diet. It takes no discipline whatsoever for me because I love it. My body loves fresh salads and veggie juice. Interesting is that Apple Cider Vinegar creates an alkaline environment rather than acidic like distilled vinegar. I daily have a fresh, organic if possible, several veggie salad with Organic Virgin Olive Oil and Organic non filtered Apple cider vinegar....my favorite food. My body doesn't care for meat, but I will force down some chicken or turkey sometimes...rarely eat red meat (gross). I eat some form of protein daily too....eats lots of Quinoa. Peanut or almond butter almost daily. Only the almond butter is alkaline.
Basically eat a whole food diet, no processed foods, or gluten. Carbs make up only about 5% of my diet which supposedly isn't good....but it's what my body says to do.

 

[leaves]

Hey Cloud; watch it with the oxalates eh quinoa an almonds are both really high in oxalates. Lentils, black-eyed peas, chickpeas, white or wild rice, macademia nuts, pumpkin seeds or sunflower seeds are very low, just so you know

 

[Cloud]

Hey Cloud; watch it with the oxalates eh quinoa an almonds are both really high in oxalates. Lentils, black-eyed peas, chickpeas, white or wild rice, macademia nuts, pumpkin seeds or sunflower seeds are very low, just so you know

Thanks Leaves.....I haven't looked into that very much, maybe because I vagualy recall oxylates having to do with muscle pain, which has never been one of my symptoms. Need to check it out. Can you link me over in this forum?

 

[river]

Hi Cig. Im thinking mainly problems to do with blood sugar for some people are a big issue in M.E. My blood sugar is now more or less under control, but it has taken me a lot of work to get there. I still have to eat very regular meals, otherwise get the shakes, anxiety goes though the roof and temperature control etc goes even more haywire than usual.

Anxiety is another reason, i have to eat protein regularly to keep my anxiety levels down, also to be able to sleep without too much waking.

There's a difference though between eating few times a day and delaying meals and fasting.
When we wake up, we're still mostly running on a ketogenic metabolism. We used liver glycogen and fatty acids at night to get energy and also
produced quite a bit of ketones. Our blood sugar should be normale (except for true diabetics) and indeed it's after a 12 hours fast in the morning that
blood sugar is tested to see whether the levels are normal. This means we're not supposed to be hypoglycemic or in need to eat in the morning.

When we eat though, we bring the metabolism back to mostly glucose burning, we get an insulin surge from eating (even proteins create an insulin surge) and we get a blood sugar spike even if all we eat is chicken breast (the less carb we eat, the more glucose is created from protein) Hence, because we're so sensitive, we enter the cycle of insulin/glucagon/blood sugar/adrenalin/endorphins roller coaster and from that starting point, if we don't eat often we get huge drops in blood sugar levels.

But if we keep fasting (i.e we were already fasting during sleep, we wake up with normal blood sugar and eat no food hence don't bother the equilibrium) we never enter in that cycle and hence we don't need to eat often because the blood sugar is now tightly regulated by endogenous mechanism and not disturbed by external ingestion of fat, protein and carbs.

That's why even those who need to eat every two hours not to collapse, till breakfast to bedtime, can feel extremely well and get perfect blood sugar readings from fasting a whole day or even two.

 

[slayadragon]

Dr. William Rea, who runs a clinic for chemically injured places in (of all toxic places!) Dallas, apparently used to use water fasting on all his patients. The fasts just lasted for three days, and were designed to both get an accurate measurement of the extent/kinds of toxins present and to give the system a chance to start to heal.

Rea says in one of his early books that he did this with thousands of patients over the years without harm. However, I was told that a prominent patient had a bad experience with this at one point. Perhaps this is why Rea doesn't use any fasting at all any more, based on what I've heard from current patients at his clinic.

If I were going to do a fast (which I have on occasion), I'd be inclined to include a lot of vegetable broth (carrots, celery, onions), heavily salted. That feels like it would be more soothing to me than fresh vegetable juice. But why the broth feels so important, I'm not sure. Electrolytes?

Best, Lisa

 

[svetoslav80]

I have also tried to cure myself with fasting so I begin with 1 day, then 2 , 3, 4 and finaly managet to eat nothing for 5 days. The result was that even I'm not bedridden most of the time, after my 3rd day of fasting I was. My immune system became weaker and I had a flare-up with my chronic prostatitis. There were some positive effects though, primary that my body began detoxifying with great speed during the fast. So it was interesting experience though it didn't cure me. If you do it, dont forget to gradually feed yourself after that - otherwise if you take large amount of food after a fast - you can die.

 

[cigana]

Hi Svetoslav,

That is interesting. How difficult did you find it to fast for 5 days? Did you feel weaker as the fast continued?

Thanks,

Mark

 

[taniaaust1]

From my own experience .. if you the longer you fast for.. the less food you will end up wanting to take in in one go when you stop fasting.

Ive fasted up to 64 days in the past (spiritual reasons).. with that one I did drink fruit juice for the first weak of fast but nothing else, solely water (fasting dont make me feel weak, I feel better fasting). Ive fasted over a month with only water on another occassion without the juice leadin to the fast.
(I do not recommend long fasts to people, I was testing my spiritual practices)

My body metabolism is amazingly slow.. but what is interesting is I get hypoglycemia so can suffer right at start of a fast.. but within 3 days, Im great and then I dont get any ill effects from glucose levels.

 

[cigana]

That is fascinating tania thanks for sharing.

Mark

 

[svetoslav80]

Water fasting is difficult - even if you are perfectly healthy, after the third day when ketosis begins, you begin to experience CFS like symptoms - debiliating fatigue (I had difficulty staying off the bed), weak immune system, vertigo, racing heart, sleeping during the day and difficulty sleeping at night, very high to very low blood pressure, bad smelling breath, dreaming about food etc etc ... So I don't know how proper this is for people with severe CFS. My intention was to fast 21 days but I wasn't able to. And Gradually feeding after a prolonged fast is even more difficult.