The 12th Invest in ME Conference, Part 1
OverTheHills presents the first article in a series of three about the recent 12th Invest In ME international Conference (IIMEC12) in London.
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What factor in red meat was responsible for my PEM relief?

Discussion in 'Post-Exertional Malaise, Fatigue, and Crashes' started by sam.d, Dec 20, 2017.

  1. Learner1

    Learner1 Forum Support Assistant

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    Meat is essential for providing nutrients, but we should be eating a greater volume of vegetables. Dr. Terri Wahls' story is quite powerful - she was going downhill rapidly with MS before she started researching nutrition. Here is her original talk, "Minding Your Mitochondria":



    This is a more recent interview discussing results with patients with neurological and autoimmune diseases:

     
  2. Gondwanaland

    Gondwanaland Senior Member

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    I could never follow a diet as hers, so high in goitrogenic foods. It also happens that MS features differ from other autoimmune diseases (e.g. low uric acid/high copper) .

    Additionally, a low starch diet might be good for those who need to loose weight, but I am already overweight and can't follow the hyped paleo, LCHF, low lectin or AIP, which only made my health decline.
     
  3. Learner1

    Learner1 Forum Support Assistant

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    @Gondwanaland From your postings, you seem to have idiosycracies that are different from many of us. Frustrating as that may be, please realize your harsh critique may serve to dissuade others who may benefit.

    The diet Wahls recommends has a great deal of scientific research behind it and many with neurological and autoimmune diseases have benefited in a clinical setting as she shares in the interview.

    As for bring overweight, I came to the diet accidentally 8 years ago trying to solve a candida problem and much to my surprise, lost 30lbs. eating steadily, weight I've kept off staying on the diet. I eat for health these days, and rarely step on a scale, but sticking to the principles of the diet, I maintain my weight.

    And, there's a lot of variety and variability in the diet - it can be adjusted for personal needs and taste, and to increase or decrease various macro or micronutrients.

    The main idea is to eat a nutrient dense diet, which benefits those of us with serious health problems.
     
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  4. Gondwanaland

    Gondwanaland Senior Member

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    Yes, you are correct, and I am sorry for giving a wrong impression to others. From reading the issues of other fellow PR members I am sure that if they would follow one of the mentioned diets they would get great symptom relief. Most symptom complaints I read here are not exclusive to CFS, and are likely additional issues just increasing the burden of the disease.
     
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  5. PatJ

    PatJ Forum Support Assistant

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    I feel worse when I eat meat. More tired, more brain fogged, with no noticeable benefits. Fish makes me nauseous; chicken and turkey add to my feeling of being spacy and brainfogged; and red meat (grass fed beef) causes increased brainfog and fatigue. I do better with protein powder, either plant source or whey protein.

    Edit: Fixed typos
     
    Last edited: Dec 21, 2017
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  6. Learner1

    Learner1 Forum Support Assistant

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    You might investigate why that is as it may provide a clue that might help with your eventual recovery.
     
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  7. BadBadBear

    BadBadBear Senior Member

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    I aim for 10-12 servings of fruit and veg. :). I eat meat and eggs daily if I can (sometimes intolerant of eggs). But there are lots of plant compounds that are very helpful for me. I would wither and die on a meat only diet.
     
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  8. PatJ

    PatJ Forum Support Assistant

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    I think it's partly due to weak digestion. I can only eat very small meals due to post-prandial hypotension and I have to take betaine hcl with pepsin in order to digest protein. I seem to need the easily digested protein and aminos found in protein powders. I rely on vegetables, nut and seed butters, ghee, flax oil, oats, and fruit for other nutrients.

    When I tried eating red meat for a week I actually lost weight even though I was adding calories to my diet.
     
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  9. Gondwanaland

    Gondwanaland Senior Member

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    Yes, carnitine in red meat optimizes energy production from fat. Perhaps this is why I can't put on weight, I eat animal protein daily, perhaps in a too high amount for my metabolism.
     
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  10. Mary

    Mary Forum Support Assistant

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    @PatJ - I have to take betaine HCL with pepsin with protein meals too - I've done it for years. My digestion was way worse before I added it in. I'm wondering if you are taking enough HCL. Before I started taking it, my liver was overloaded with toxins, it couldn't digest properly and symptoms of liver toxicity include brain fog, fatigue etc. I did have to do a liver detox too, which made a big difference. So maybe you need to do a liver detox? And maybe more betaine HCL with pepsin? My chiropractor who does muscle testing is the one who helped me when my liver was toxic.
     
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  11. Mary

    Mary Forum Support Assistant

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    In 2002, after taking 1000 or 2000 mg of l-carnitine a day (cannot remember which dose, think it was 2000 mg) for about a week, I experienced I think 10 days of good energy and no PEM. I thought I had found the answer to everything, and then it just stopped working. But I've continued to take carnitine in various forms ever since, as I know how important it is.
     
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  12. Runner5

    Runner5 Senior Member

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    I think diet might be genetically determined or based in part of what we eat as children. I was Vegan and it was not a good fit for me at all but I felt better having that discipline and framework of what to eat that was 'healthy' and thinking it was going to cure me or at least help me. It was more like I joined a bit of a comforting religion then found a helpful diet. In reality I'm very allergic to a whole bunch of grains and plants (tons, and have been since a baby but discovered so many more I would never have known about!) and that's a big problem trying to stay Vegan. I think I might be allergic to eggs though too and I can't digest meat too well. I use digestive enzymes. I can't take HCL as my stomach produces too much acid and as it is I have pneumonia at the moment from aspirating stomach acid. I wish it had worked for me though, then I could smugly look at the rest of the world and think -- "you fools! If you only knew what I knew! You're all going to die on your nasty meat heavy fat saturated diets!" Well, something like that. Instead I just look in the mirror and think....omg....what am I doing. Then I go, screw it, I'm going to have coffee. Seriously just screw it, screw everything, give me coffee and leave me be. Then I drink coffee and I know - I fail. I fail at all of this dietary restriction stuff.
     
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  13. Isaiah 58:11

    Isaiah 58:11 Senior Member

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    This is exactly what happened to me a few months ago after years of finding carnitine helpful. I think my body slammed the door on that pathway for some reason. I posted before about thinking my carnitine and ketone issues could be related and since carnitine has stopped working its magic I have confirmed non diabetic ketoacidosis. I sure wish I could figure out *what* is going on with this.

    Anyway, I suspect some of us have genetics that demand red meat. I crave it and eat it regularly but test deficient in carnitine, tyrosine, and methionine. I also benefit from large amounts of supplemental lysine. My only sibling, who does not have ME/CFS has fits of absolutely needing to eat red meat immediately as well, which I believe we got from our father.

    I find it interesting that one of the posters can't have grass-fed beef. I wonder if it is the omega 3? I have a hard time with regular beef, which I now know is a mast cell issue. I am not sure if it is the mycotoxins from the feed or...
     
    Last edited: Dec 22, 2017
  14. Gondwanaland

    Gondwanaland Senior Member

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    How much Biotin do you take?
     
  15. PatJ

    PatJ Forum Support Assistant

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    I've found that I need one 650mg capsule for every 4 grams of protein. If I take one capsule extra then I get a sensation of warmth and sometimes discomfort of having too much acid in my stomach.

    The fatigue I get from eating meat is different from 'not enough HCL' post meal fatigue. It was a low level additonal fatigue that was constant for the entire week I tried eating red meat. I get a similar type of fatigue from cheese, which is another high density, calorie rich food. I'm OK with yogurt and kefir though, possibly since they're much easier to digest. And I don't have any trouble with small amounts of nut and seed butters throughout the day.

    I think cravings are a often a good indicator of the body knowing which foods have nutrients it needs. I don't crave meat at all, and have a slight aversion to the thought of eating it, and even the smell of it cooking. Maybe this is a type of anti-craving where my body wants me to stay away from a food that contains something harmful to it at the moment.

    There was a discussion a few months ago on PR where some people mentioned that since they developed ME they would crave meat, while others had an aversion to it.

    I take silymarin most days, and sometimes ALA, so my liver is getting some support but maybe a detox would help. Can you point to any information detailing detox methods that you recommend?
     
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  16. Isaiah 58:11

    Isaiah 58:11 Senior Member

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    @Gondwanaland

    I have taken 5 mg daily sublingually and tested as deficient, so moved to 10 mg daily sublingually all at once and then also tried divided doses, now I am not taking any as it made no difference whatsoever.
     
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  17. PatJ

    PatJ Forum Support Assistant

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    I started taking flax oil last year to boost my omega 3 intake. My body really liked it and I found that I craved more of it, up to four tablespoons per day for a few weeks. Now I don't crave it anymore and take a tablespoon per day as a maintenance dose. So I'm doubtful that omega 3 was the problem, but it's an interesting thought.
     
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  18. andyguitar

    andyguitar Senior Member

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    As a regular meat eater what strikes me as a bit odd is that it effects me in a positive way as soon as I start eating it. That's to quick for any substantial nutrients to be obtained from it. So here's an idea. It's the taste that has the effect. Not such a wild idea when you consider that the medicinal actions of herbs are (supposedly) partly due to tasting the herb. Bitter herbs for digestion is one example. Neural networks stimulated by taste maybe?
     
  19. Learner1

    Learner1 Forum Support Assistant

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    You likely got enough of it. However, flax seed is a shorter chain fatty acid and doesn't automatically convert to longer ones (like DHA and EPA) if you're deficient in cofactors. I find it best to think of taking a palette of various fatty acids of different lengths, as our cell membranes, etc. need them all.

    For example, flax seed, walnut, evening primrose, coconut, olive, and fish oils along with avocados and fats from organic eggs and meat.
     
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  20. Gondwanaland

    Gondwanaland Senior Member

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    I am starting to think that the factor to which people react is glutathione precursors (glutamic acid + sulfur), because I love eating meat and flax made me very ill. My understanding was that flax "freezes" glutamic acid avoiding its conversion to either glutamate or glutathione. As I posted elsewhere, I felt that flaxseed oil inhibited glutathione synthesis by blocking thyroid hormone receptors, or T3 synthesis. I suppose this would hit harder those with thyroid problems like myself.

    So for some people eating meat makes it easier to make glutathione, for other it becomes harder and they get increased glutamate and sulfites (ammonia?)

    If the problem is ammonia, then Biotin should help with that.
     
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