strange reaction to phosphatidylserine and lithium orotate

[mike1127]

I needed to sleep well tonight so I took some extra phosphatidylserine and lithium orotate, and instead of sleeping well I am wide awake, almost like a shot of coffee.

A step back, let me explain. I've been taking lithium orotate for a while now and it really helps me calm down. I take about 10 of the 120 mg pills per day (equivalent of 50 mg of elemental lithium per day). My doctor thinks I should take even more, or switch to a low dose of pharmaceutical lithium, because my blood lithium is very low.

Normally I take about 3 of the L.O. pills at night, but I wanted to sleep better so I upped that to 5 tonight. L.O. seems to make me calmer so that seemed like a good idea.

That was the first change. Second, I took extra phos. serine complex-- normally I take 1000 mg, and I took 2000 mg instead. I've read that phos. serine causes sedation in general, so I always take it at night, and I assumed extra would lead to better sleep (and faster onset of sleep).

I also take rispderal at night, 2 mg. I took some extra risperdal which is a powerful sedating medicine.

So I am astonished to find myself at 3 AM feeling completely awake, I mean COMPLETELY awake and alert and totally unable to sleep.

Does anyone here know more about these supplements than I do, and can explain this reaction?

 

[stridor]

@mike1127
Hi,
I'm trying to put this together. You are prescribed respiridone and your Dr wants you to take more lithium and is interested in it enough to do blood levels. This suggests that your Dr is treating an underlying mood disturbance (?)

I had Bipolar Disorder for a long time, so I kind of understand about this sort of thing. While you may be correct in your assumption that something you took, or a combination resulted in a sleepless night. Two other possibilities are that you were going to have a sleepless night regardless, or that it wasn't that something you took had this effect ....it was that you took anything at all. In other words, you have a sensitive system.

On the other hand, pserine can contribute to the production of dopamine (and hence norepinephrine) as well as acetylcholine so I think that there is a possible explanation for your wakefulness. While many find that pserine lowers cortisol levels and is helpful at bedtime it is hard to predict the results when there is a chemical agent on board affecting multiple neurotransmitter systems.

 

[Undisclosed]

A known side-effect of phosphatidylserine is insomnia. The extra amount might have contributed to that. Also blood levels might have increased because of taking risperdal with it.

 

[Critterina]

I also have experience insomnia taking PS, even when I took it in the morning.

 

[Star-Anise]

@mike1127
Yes I used PS for a long time to help with my high night-time cortisol, and then there became a day when it did the exact same thing to me. For me & my individual makeup I hypothesized that it had to do with speeding up the BHMT reaction as part of methylation.
From Yasko with respect to methylation cycle:

The “long way” around this portion of the cycle begins with the forward reaction of the MTHFR enzyme (seen in the middle pathway) and then via the MTR and MTRR enzymes. The “shortcut” goes through the middle of the cycle via the BHMT enzyme, thereby bypassing MTR, MTRR and MTHFR. Using the clock metaphor that I mentioned earlier, the BHMT enzyme uses the biochemicals phosphatidyl serine, phosphatidyl choline, and TMG as substrates to go directly from homocysteine at 6:00 to methionine at 12:00, skipping 7:00 P.M. through 11:00 P.M. This shortcut (also called the “back-door reaction”) generates more norepinephrine relative to dopamine, leading to imbalances that have been implicated in ADD and ADHD behaviors.

As others have alluded, it's likely that there has been some shift in your brain chemicals such that PS won't create the same effect. I was there, & no matter how much I used (smaller & smaller doses) it caused the insomnia. Same thing happened with my husband. It took me awhile to wean off of the PS & reestablish a balance with brain chemicals such that I could sleep again. I'm on just a pinch of Tryptophan now, & it does the trick. Solving sleeping problems are often really tough. I would suggest making one change & then giving your body a few weeks to try to adjust… I found if I had too big of expectations too fast then I would just get frustrated and that would contribute to the insomnia. I had to accept for awhile that while I was reestablishing the balance I had to plan for more daytime naps, lol I can provide more info re: what worked for me… but I'm not that familiar with some of the medications that you are on, so our situations might be quite different. xoxo All the best,

 

[mike1127]

Thanks everyone. When I get past this day which is shaping up to be a difficult one considering I got very little sleep and now can't seem to even take a nap, I'll reply back with some more information. I'll add my SNPs and current meds to my sig.

 

[mike1127]

I've heard that methylation can go runaway if it starts up too fast. I still feel wired, 14 hours after taking the PS (2000 mg). I've also heard that some niacin can kill the reaction, and maybe some potassiuim is useful. Can I get advice?

 

[South]

Mike1127 - take a look at this thread, it may help:
http://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?threads/overmethylation-urgent-help.27099/

 

[L'engle]

Lithium orotate overramped my thyroid, causing some trouble sleeping.

 

[vortex]

I had this problem too, after a lot if research I found it is the phosphatidylcholine that is in the complex that is stimulating. So I switched to a pure phosphatidylserine product that wasn't a complex and therefore doesn't have the stimulating phosphatidylcholine. It wasn't easy finding either, but I found swansons 300mg. Phosphatidylserine. You can tell it is different because it is not a Softgel, it is a capsule. Works great, problem solved.

 

[Peyt]

If you want better sleep you might give phosphatidylcholine a try. Phosphatidylserine does the opposite for me.(Make me awake)

 

[sregan]

If you want better sleep you might give phosphatidylcholine a try. Phosphatidylserine does the opposite for me.(Make me awake)

phosphatidylcholine should help boost acetylcholine which is brain food and I think give the majority a "more awake" feeling. I take Lecithin (Choline precursor) for this effect.

 

[Peyt]

phosphatidylcholine should help boost acetylcholine which is brain food and I think give the majority a "more awake" feeling. I take Lecithin (Choline precursor) for this effect.

Well I guess it has a different effect for everyone. I actually take Magnesium, Niacinmede and Phosphadidylcholine 1 hour before going to bed and have great sleep.... but then again I have COMT++ which mean excess norepenephrine. But even if I take Phosphatidylserine in the morning I still can't sleep at night. (wide awake all night)

 

[Critterina]

Well I guess it has a different effect for everyone. I actually take Magnesium, Niacinmede and Phosphadidylcholine 1 hour before going to bed and have great sleep.... but then again I have COMT++ which mean excess norepenephrine. But even if I take Phosphatidylserine in the morning I still can't sleep at night. (wide awake all night)

Phosphatidylserine suppresses cortisol, among other things, which can cause insomnia if your adrenals are weak/low/fatigued/insufficient. Fine if your cortisol is high, but I'd worry about it being dangerous for you if it keeps you awake. At least that's how I feel about it for me, and what I was taking was a combination of both forms. Everyone has to judge for themselves.