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Potassium supplementation? Please help!

Moshi

Senior Member
Messages
194
Location
Sweden
I just went all cold inside when I refilled my pill-minder box....maybe....possibly...I have forgotten to take my Alcar Fumarate for the past...week???? If so....is that the reason why I am now dragging my left leg behind me? And if so....what would be my best strategy for getting out of this paradoxical folate insufficiency and/or methyl trap- situation? I am already planning to increase M-folate tomorrow up to 4,5-5mg....should I increase MCbl too...or wait? Help is greatly appreciated! ( oh yeah and of course I will make sure to take my carnitine tomorrow....but IF my body's been missing it for a week...how will it react?)
 

ahmo

Senior Member
Messages
4,805
Location
Northcoast NSW, Australia
@Moshi Yes, it's not easy to understand these issues. I've re-read posts countless times, still have the most basic comprehension. You say Alcar Fumarate: There are 2 popular forms of carnitine. Acetyl-Carnitine, known as Alcar, and L-Carnitine Fumarate, which we call LCF. So what you've written seems to be a combination of the 2. For me, Alcar was useless, LCF potent. And yes, TMG is a methyl donor. Your missed doses could have caused your system to gasp for more.

Now I see a more recent post. I don't know whether missing the carnitine would be the cause, but that combined w/ missing TMG might indeed. Yes, increase those things. Definitely increase the B12 to balance the folate, else you can wind up with histamine or other symptoms of 'over-methylation'. On the ocassions when increasing folate has created symptoms in me, I've had excellent results by immediately taking a 1 mg B12. These symptoms, for me, include weepy eyes, agitation , restlessness, wheezy, itchiness.

I'm posting a collection of quotes from Freddd that might turn on some lightbulbs for you. First, a post from @whodathunkit, who has a remarkably good ability to put these things into understandable language and analogies. Hope this helps.;)

http://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?threads/cannot-tolerate-oral-b12-–-causes-shortness-of-breath-and-tachycardia-why.28910/page-4#post-454211
FYI, Freddd theorizes that there are levels of healing, and that a certain amount of folate is needed to pass through each level. But that amount is different for each person according to the state of their health. A very sick person will need more for each level, and for a longer period of time, than will a person who is not terribly ill.

BTW, don't get too hung up on what the "levels" are...I suspect he may have chosen that term simply because it was the best way to conceptualize what he was saying, and also to help categorize the different symptoms that could be manifested when experiencing folate deficiency.

Main point to the concept of levels being that you can't progress with healing unless you've got sufficient folate to drive the process. Also, sometimes you may get sick, get better, then get sick again. But each time you get better, you're better than you were before. It's like going up stairs or a scatter plot graph rather than a straight linear ramp or shot from illness to wellness.

So, say you take 800mcg/day of folate for a while. That's enough to get you you going. But when your body tries to pass through to the second level on that amount of folate, it can't, because the folate is all used up. Or maybe it even stops halfway through the first level because you don't have enough folate to get all the way through that. It's like a car running out of gas. To get where you want to be, you need enough fuel to get there. You have to add more folate. When you do, you will progress until you use up all that folate. And so on, until you've done a bunch of healing. When your body is healed or at least well on the path to healing you can reduce the dosage. Or that's the theory.

http://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?threads/couple-of-questions.22718/page-3#post-407888
Freddd: If methylation starts up many people almost immediately have induced deficiencies. The first two are usually paradoxical folate insufficiency and low serum potassium. After that often come zinc, or magnesium, or vitamin D or half a dozen others. So the solution is more L-methylfolate and/or more potassium, titrated until the symptoms disappear. It works for a lot of people. It happens to a large percentage of people who start methylation. It means you have started healing and forming cells. That mounts more demand on the bodies supplies of nutrients

There is a lot of reading to do. It is like solving a giant maze. You get clues in the form of changing symptoms, new symptoms, strengthening of neurological symptoms and all these allow you to follow the clues of healing. The low potassium and low folate symptoms are usually the first clues and then one deals with these induced deficiencies and moves on to the next thing.

Typically several of these symptoms will appear suddenly with more appearing and worsening over time if corrections are not made. While these groups of symptoms are called “detox” by some alternative practitioners and many people otherwise knowledgeable about vitamins and supplements, depending upon what theories they are operating under, use this term. Typically they are working on a “toxin” theory of CFS/FMS/ME/MCS etc and that these vitamins and supplements mobilize the toxins which then cause all sorts of symptoms in the groups listed. As the “translations” are made it is clear that actual “detox” if it exists, has nothing to do with these symptoms and they can be dangerous to ignore.

http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...ylation-and-healing.21725/page-20#post-422644
In here it says it’s crucial to recognise the ‘flags of healing’/ neurological brightening....

Freddd: An awful lot of peoples discussion around here is how to avoid them since having them is typically about as easy as falling off a log. Basically an hour after a person takes a Metafolin table and swallows it, put an Enzymatic Therapy tablet under their lip and part of an Anabol Naturals Dibencoplex capsule contents under their lower lip. In about an hour about 90% of those with a good assortment of CFS/FMS responsive symptoms (symptoms on those lists) will have some to a lot of effects. Much of ot is neurological brightening. That is literally everything looks brighter. All pains feel ”brighter“. Hearing may sharpen. Intensity increases. Some people feel it as pleasantly stimulation, like they hadn’t had this kind of clarity or energy since they got sick. Many get a little euphoric. Others get anxious. Lots of ways to feel MORE as the nervous system starts to wake up. Despite the intensity I felt I also know my life of misery was changing right before my eyes. Those who feel anxious then interpret all these things in whatever is fearful to them. This ”anxious and fear“ interpretation appears to be linked to a hyper-response in part of the brain, the limbic system,. For most people it isn’t that it is too subtle to see, it’s that they it hits so hard they can’t stand it and it triggers all the worst stories of what must be happening since it is so intense.

Then on about the third day all sorts of symptoms hit and a person can be feeling quite sick. These are usually a combination of potassium deficiency and donut hole folate deficiency. Then one takes enough potassium to relieve the low serum potassium symptoms and more folate until the induced folate deficiency symptoms. There is a list of those specific symptoms so it is easy to match up.

Then after the potassium and folate are adjusted to correct lack of low potassium and/or folate symptoms. As long as there is a some significant amount of ”brightening“ just keep going. When that fades a fair amount it’s time to start titrating the LCF. If one has anxiety as a reaction, then the micro titration of LCF would be suggested. If it was no anxiety but maybe euphoria or just ”energized“ then a regular titration would appear suitable.

http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...ficiency-insufficiency-and-edema.26944/unread
Freddd: The body is said to have a “triage” system for distribution, or maybe utilization of, b12 and folate. Healing can turn on with methylation and ATP startup and yet deficiency symptoms can worsen on other layers. The placement of edema within a layer can be done by the symptoms set it responds with; angular cheilitis, IBS and acne type lesions, and others, depending upon duration and severity of insufficiency.

For me the comings and goings of edema were very mysterious without a framework. It came and went at various times in my life. Five years of watching the comings and goings of paradoxical folate insufficiency it became clear that the first symptom to appear was edema and evidenced by weight gain. It was also the first symptom to clearly reverse upon a sufficient dose of Metafolin.

This was after all other nutrients were in place including the Deadlock Quartet of AdoCbl, MeCbl, L-methylfolate and L-carnitine fumarate; basic vitamins and minerals, fats etc. I ran into trouble when my diuretic started working too well. It turns out I didn’t need it at all any more. I was out of folate insufficiency by that time about 3 weeks a month, enough to take the water off. Just these past months after reducing B1, B2 and B3 to what was in a moderately low dose b-complex twice a day I have been consistently out of folate insufficiency for months now. It’s a delicate balance all the way around.
 
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Moshi

Senior Member
Messages
194
Location
Sweden
Ahmo, once again, thanks for you reply and the valuable info....things are indeed a bit clearer to me now...even if a high degree of complexity still remain...as it does for most of us I'm sure...otherwise no threads in this forum ;-)
You, and others, have given me renewed hope! Even though my leg is still limp and paralysed, and I woke up with swollen lips (thats a first) and aching arms etc, I am now hopeful that tweaking my methyl supps may do the trick!
By the end of this week I will be aiming for 5mg Mfolate, 3 mg MeCbl and 4mg AdCbl, together with 1,2 g LCF + 400mg Alcar (as part of Jarrow CarnitAll 600+) Is that a reasonable ratio? I will supplement with 700mg Potassium Gluconate also.
Hopefully this will yield some positive results, if not, I may consider upping methyl supps even more....
If my leg neuropathy is fixed by this, It will be proof to me that Freddd's theory on paradox folate definciency and healing crisis etc is correct...In the meantime, I will try to focus on the scientific- and experimental side of all of this, instead of being scared out of my mind.....and I will definitely apply more diligence and care to my personal protocol, carelessness can be detrimental....obviously.
 

ahmo

Senior Member
Messages
4,805
Location
Northcoast NSW, Australia
Here's hoping it works:thumbsup:

I've just been doing some reading re folates from vegetables, after my body yesterday said "No" to my usual zucchini. I'm wondering now if my vegetable intake has also been contributing to my high folate need. I'm not eating a lot of veggies, but maybe when we're sensitive, it doesn't take a lot. If you're eating lot's of veggies, you might try cutting back. This is about the type of folate in veggies interfering w/ absorption of the Mfolate. I'll be pulling some quotes for myself later, if you think it might apply to you, I'll pass them on.
 

Moshi

Senior Member
Messages
194
Location
Sweden
Ahmo, thanks again for input! Re: veggie consumption, yes, I eat quite a lot (more veg than animal as I am to avoid too much animal protein due to SNP's) it's not easy....should not eat carbs, should not eat animal protein, should not eat too much veg....what the **** is one left with!!?? :) :) :) to answer your question, I do not believe that I've had more veg than usual lately though.....I feel like there could be quite a few other reasons why these severe neuro-symptoms have been triggered.....I just wish I could undo all of my recent changes and go back to where I was three weeks ago....I am so, so, so scared that I've inflicted permanent neurological damage...I thinking I should try to increase my daily potassium to 1g or above......praying that will work....!
 

ahmo

Senior Member
Messages
4,805
Location
Northcoast NSW, Australia
Hi Moshi. I seriously doubt this is permanent damage, when you describe having forgotten to take things you had been using. I'm on GAPS diet, 2+ years. I eat a v minimalist diet. I know Yasko suggests avoiding meat, but Cutler says it's high thiol we need to avoid, and meat is assimilated differently. I can't give you the technical reasons. I eat about a palm-sized piece of animal protein; once a day when I'm doing coffee enemas, twice a day when not. But no high thiol veggies, etc.

But get this: it turns out my veggie intake, which had gradually increased (only peeled zuke, but slightly larger portions) was having a major impact. Whereas I've been gradually increasing my folate by .25mg at a time, over months, I'm now 2 days with no vegetable at all, and have reduced my folate from 24.25mg to 18mg. And B12 from 31 to 25mg. With no deficiency symptoms whatsoever. I feel great! This is a revelation.
Here's some really helpful info from Freddd:

http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...untrap-a-methyl-trap.28218/page-2#post-430351
Eat well. But, based on your reaction to the green drinks, same as mine, avoid excessive amounts of vegetable folate, especially until you get healing going and can tell the difference in a few hours. I pay of if if I eat a garden feast and go into partial methylation block (commonly called "detox"). I have a nice organic garden, I just have to keep limits. I try to keep stable on 8mg a day of Metafolin. I could eat more veggies if I took 16mg a day.

And here's a response I got yesterday when I expressed what was happening w/ me:
http://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?threads/high-dosage-methylfolate-users.29976/page-5
I remember that post. I also seem to remember reading that if you've got one of the homozygous MTHFR mutations it can cause problems not only in processing folic acid, but also folinic acid you get from veggies. If you're heterozygous in that mutation it can cause some problems with folinic acid depending upon your mutation configuration and other factors (like how healthy you are in general), but it won't necessarily cause you a big problem unless you over-consume or are having other health problems.

My MTHFR is compound hetero, but you've got homozygous + an additional one. Double whammy. I hope this is what's going on.:hug:
 
Messages
1
It actually feels quite the same as low potassium. Palpitations, depression, muscle spasms, brain fog,..
But I know I have too much because if I take more I start to feel worse and worse.
@girlfromeurope I know this is an old post, and I hope your symptoms have resolved by now, but I felt I may be able to help. I experienced the symptoms you describe above as a result of B12 toxicity. My symptoms also included dizziness/lightheadedness and anxiety/mild panic. I had been taking between 5000-10,000 mcg sublingual methyl B12 for anemia, for a period of over 1 year. Initially I believe the B12 was helping, but after several months of high dose supplementation, my main complaints of memory loss(!), fatigue, brain fog, hands falling asleep, etc. became worse and no one could figure out what the issue was. It wasn't until I began feeling like I was going to black out that I did some intensive research and discovered that there is such a thing as B12 overdose/toxicity. If you're taking 1000's of mcg's of B12 daily it's quite possible that this can be creating major problems for your health. It sounds like you've had your B12 levels tested with results showing low levels, but be aware that testing can be influenced by several factors.
http://www.dsm.com/campaigns/talkin...amin-B12-measurement-controversy-HCY2013.html
Good luck,
Jason