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THE STAGES OF METHYLATION AND HEALING

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by Freddd, Feb 7, 2013.

  1. colinmb

    colinmb

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    I'm working down the supplement lists and have a couple more questions.
    (1) Inositol is on Fredd's original protocol at what looks like 400mg/d, but I see no recent mention of it at all. (I notice the Pure Encaps B-Complex Plus contains 10mg.) Is it still recommended, and how much?
    (2) Is SAMe and/or TMG still recommended. I've read various posts in the context of a SAMe/TMG debate, but I'm none the wiser really.
  2. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Last edited: Jan 9, 2014
  3. colinmb

    colinmb

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  4. colinmb

    colinmb

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    Thanks Freddd. I'm struggling to understand how to use the symptoms lists but I'll keep at it. Separately. are Inositol, SAMe and TMG still part of the equation?
  5. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Yes, but they are tried, titrated after the other things get going, they are for adjusting and customizing things, not things to automatically take at some arbitrary dose, especially the SAM-e and TMG. Find your symptoms. The patterns of the symptoms tell a lot.
  6. colinmb

    colinmb

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    I'm sorry guys but I'm lost on all fronts; I hope you have the time/patience. Fred, you say, "Find your symptoms. The patterns of the symptoms tell a lot." I'm afraid I don't see how to use the symptoms lists. But my difficulties run deeper. I think I have a definitive list of supplements, but I’m struggling with how to proceed. Is this set of instructions still current? http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...d-folate-protocol-with-micro-titration.17818/ (about halfway down, commencing “1. Establish the basic vitamins, minerals, supplements including lecithin”)? In here it says it's crucial to recognise the ‘flags of healing’/ neurological brightening, how to notice a drop in potassium etc, but I've no idea how to recognize those things - I can’t see how I’m going to manage the reiterative titration process with hardly any idea what signs I’m looking for. Another example: “After this initial potassium and methylfolate adjustments, the potassium may need further adjustments when adb1 and/or LCF are added in and sometimes other missing factors” - I wouldn't know where to begin with that. Is anyone willing to chat to me over the phone – I suspect one or two things would be easier to explain verbally?
  7. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Colinmb,

    It isn't as difficult as you are fearing.

    In here it says it's crucial to recognise the ‘flags of healing’/ neurological brightening

    An awful lot of peoples discussion around here is how to avoid them since having them is typically about as easy as falling off a log. Basically an hour after a person takes a Metafolin table and swallows it, put an Enzymatic Therapy tablet under their lip and part of an Anabol Naturals Dibencoplex capsule contents under their lower lip. In about an hour about 90% of those with a good assortment of CFS/FMS responsive symptoms (symptoms on those lists) will have some to a lot of effects. Much of ot is neurological brightening. That is literally everything looks brighter. All pains feel "brighter". Hearing may sharpen. Intensity increases. Some people feel it as pleasantly stimulation, like they hadn't had this kind of clarity or energy since they got sick. Many get a little euphoric. Others get anxious. Lots of ways to feel MORE as the nervous system starts to wake up. Despite the intensity I felt I also know my life of misery was changing right before my eyes. Those who feel anxious then interpret all these things in whatever is fearful to them. This "anxious and fear" interpretation appears to be linked to a hyper-response in part of the brain, the limbic system,. For most people it isn't that it is too subtle to see, it's that they it hits so hard they can't stand it and it triggers all the worst stories of what must be happening since it is so intense.

    Then on about the third day all sorts of symptoms hit and a person can be feeling quite sick. These are usually a combination of potassium deficiency and donut hole folate deficiency. Then one takes enough potassium to relieve the low serum potassium symptoms and more folate until the induced folate deficiency symptoms. There is a list of those specific symptoms so it is easy to match up.

    Then after the potassium and folate are adjusted to correct lack of low potassium and/or folate symptoms. As long as there is a some significant amount of "brightening" just keep going. When that fades a fair amount it's time to start titrating the LCF. If one has anxiety as a reaction, then the micro titration of LCF would be suggested. If it was no anxiety but maybe euphoria or just "energized" then a regular titration would appear suitable.


    If you don't get startup with the first 3, then titrate the LCF, again whether micro or regular depending upon whether anxiety is one of your symptoms. If there still isn't any startup, there is another round of critical cofactors like Vit D (if not already being taken as part of basics, 3000-5000 IU typically), SMA-e, TMG, Biotin, D-Ribose, magnesium, more zinc up to a total of around 50mg, and maybe a few other items. In my estimation 90% of the discussion is about how to heal without having startup so it goes way afield from methylation and ATP startup. So don't assume that it will be too subtle to see or not happen at all. There is a checklist, THE 95% REASONS B12/FOLATE THERAPIES DON'T WORK. Read that first. It was my "debugging" list. I found all those reasons the hard way, by running into them and learning what I had to do to get things working. Achieving startup for 95% of those who try it as stated have no doubt about it. Some will say you have to do "X" or "Y" first. Some of them may be correct under some circumstances. However, remember this. There are hundreds of symptoms caused by hundreds of biochemical breakdowns from these deficiencies. There are many hundreds or thousands of breakdowns because these. It is all these secondary or tertiary reactions that cause damage and make all sorts of additional things go wrong that then make even more things go wrong. My "logic" approach is that if one fixes the most fundamental bottom layer, hundreds of these things will correct and be gone or very reduced in a year. Then when one sees what ISN'T being helped or gone away, or getting worse these things can be targeted.

    Then mostly as one continues, additional things might be increased or decreased to "tune the effects". As the intensity fades then one can work with titrating the MeCbl and AdoCbl for maximum effectiveness.

    There are some potentially dangerous responses, the low potassium being one of them. If the low potassium isn't corrected, a person can end up in the ER or if long enough, dead. Taking CoQ10 during the early months of startup and healing can increase the blood pressure dangerously in a matter of hours. Healing itself can be very unpleasant, especially neurological healing. I can tell how good a new batch of injectable b12 is by how much it increases the pain in my feet. ATP startup starts all sorts of enzymes that hadn't been working well start working better causing all sorts of transitory effects. The important thing is to distinguish induced deficiencies from

    I understand the desire to have a simple plan. I don't know how that could work. If methylation starts up, and with MeCbl and methylfolate, it usually does in hours, but even if it is after weeks, all the pent up healing starts trying to heal and that induces side effects, usually other deficiencies. I just read another article by a doctor last night about how having high folate in tests can be caused by insufficient B1. By the same token too much B1 can cause low folate. There are several dozen items that work together and all interact. The body is a complicated item.

    I hope this helps to understand these matters.. As 100 different people are going to have 300 different responses of some kind or another it always has to be customized and is never simple.
  8. knackers323

    knackers323 Senior Member

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    To those that have been through it. When you go through 'detox' type symptoms eg. Feeling worse, headache, fluish etc. do you tend to feel better than before when you come out the other side of it?
  9. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Coming out the "other side is usually caused by taking more potassium and/or more methylfolate depending upon exact symptoms. Many of the paradoxical folate symptoms have been present for a lot of us for decades to a lifetime so of course we feel better when we correct them.
  10. knackers323

    knackers323 Senior Member

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    Yes I mean part way through treatment though. I felt some promise when I started treatment and now I am back to how I started or worse
  11. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    What symptoms got worse? Are you taking all four of the Deadlock quartet with the specific brands and methods?
  12. knackers323

    knackers323 Senior Member

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    I had more energy and that has now gone. My skin started to get better but looks like it is now going backwards.

    The hot feeling I have in my head and upper body has been very bad the last two days. (Dont know what this is, Inflamation?)

    Last few days I have had a dull throat like how you feel when getting sick and a throbbing headache. I don't normally have these last two symptoms.

    I have been eating a fair bit of tuna recently. Could it be mercury?
  13. colinmb

    colinmb

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    Further to your kind reply (for which, many thanks Freddd), I've spent some time reading through various threads, and my understanding is much better; nevertheless I've a number of further questions (not to mention sub-questions!). I want to get it all reasonably straight in my head before I embark on taking Anna through it, so as to improve the chances of success while minimizing the downside suffering...

    Q1 You say, on Day 1 to take 1x EnzyTherB12Infusion. But only 1 (x 1mg)? Previously with Jarrow, the recommendation was 1 (x 5mg), so why not 5 (x 1mg) EnzyTher now?

    Q2 Re Dibencoplex, you say to take and 1/10-1/2. Within that wide range, what does one's choice depend on? What’s best to try? ¼?

    Q3 If successful startup on Day1, do we continue on Days 2, 3 and beyond, on the same minimal dosages as day1? Or step up the dosages? And if so, which ones and how much?

    Q4 If no startup on minimal dosages, do we try again on increased dosages? Or switch to trying to start up with LCF?

    Q5 You say “If you don't get startup with the first 3, then titrate the LCF” – do you mean omit the B12s and folate for now, and try to start up on LCF alone? If so then presumably bring back in the B12s and folate once successfully started up on LCF?

    Q6 Re LCF, is it 855mg 1xdaily? Single or split doses? (Short half-life?)

    Q7 Re potassium, there’s talk of 1-3g per day? Am I right in thinking the symptoms of excessive K are similar to the symptoms of insufficiency? Can we pre-empt deficiency by going straight to 2g or 3g from day 1? And please confirm we're talking about elemental K, so 2g equates to 12g potassium gluconate or 4g potassium chloride? (Which form is preferable?)

    Q8 Should we take a multi-min/ multi-vit supplement (i.e. in addition to the fish oils, lecithin, B-Complex, the Gamma-E, the ascorbic acid powder and calcium and magnesium citrate tabs/powders)? If so, which one? Or if the only additional things we need are zinc, selenium (and inositol?), why not just take additional supplements for these, rather than a multi? Is it still advisable to avoid copper and iron?

    Q9 How much calcium and magnesium?

    Q10 What times of day should things be taken? Which things need to be separate from which other things? Which are better taken together? Which should be taken with food?

    Q11 You talk about B3 turning down your methylation. Why/when would you want to do this? When you’re feeling too wired to sleep?

    Q12 Are crashes inevitable or can they be avoided?

    Thanks in anticipation!
  14. colinmb

    colinmb

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    Hi guys - anyone willing to have a stab at my questions? I could probably guess at a few of them, but not with any confidence; I've bought most of the products and I want to get my daughter started on this - but I need to be able to give her plenty of reassurance and respond to her doubts from a position of some knowledge, and I don't I'm quite there yet.
  15. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    HI Colinmb,

    I'll get to answering your previous post. The pre-colonoscopy prep knocked the stuffing out of me in more ways than one, and my digestion is only beginning to work normally again, I've had a very intense paradoxical folate deficiency episode with "merely" an additional 25mg of B1 on two successive days and then had a CNS healing startup with resultant intense shooting pains in my nerves and mood and personality shifts, fouled up prescriptions, 4, at two different stores and 2 different doctors' offices and getting a transmission leak fixed but got worse instead. And it is all data, except the foul-ups and even those illustrated to me the mood/personality shifts.

    I'm a Sherlock fan and really like this new BBC Sherlock series. I'm sorry to say I don't always "get it" as fast as he does. I'm only a systems analyst and I have to just plod along. The relevance of this will be clear in a minute.

    A week ago I went outside and saw a bloody mess on the driveway, well, a tablespoon of blood anyway and a lot of feathers. I jumped to the assumption that it was a cat that had gotten a bird. Now I have seen lots of that through the years and I had never seen a cat arrange the feathers in a circle with a clear space and blood in the middle. In fact I have never seen so much as a drop of blood from a cat killing a bird so the whole scene bothered me. It wasn't right.

    The answer dropped in yesterday out of the sky. On the fence 10 feet away from the kill scene sat a young peregrine falcon in the process of molting to adult feathers. Falcons are messy eaters. When they fly off the downbeat of the wings clears a circle. There is the answer that fits all the clues. No dissonance any more from facts not coinciding with the theory. Theories are usually wrong. My immediate presumption of a cat was wrong.

    History, and data are always being re-evaluated in hindsight. So some of your questions go to the apparent contradictions. Many things I have said are specific to the question. Some go to semantics.

    I've been at the actual practice of healing my body with b12 et al for 11 years. The first 5 gave me all 4 of the deadlock quartet and the disaster of glutathione. Disasters can be very educational when understood. The next almost 6 years has been spent learning about methylfolate and it's modifiers. And it really is something new. All the research on B1, B2 and B3 and other things were done in the absence of methylfolate and active b12s.. One thing I had noted was that virtually ALL the other vitamins and supplements had much more effect with the deadlock quartet, with most of the nutritional research done on people in starvation mode for b12 and the pseudo vitamin folic acid.

    In the presence of the active b12s and folate, B1, B2 and B3 are a real surprise as they are tremendously more powerful in the presence of the active b12/folate.

    Each of the factors in turn has required a complete re-evaluation from the base up and modification of the model. Nothing stays fixed. Taking these things into account changes everything. So over time everything changes. Even at this pace, 11 years, it will take 100 years for all this to come as a result of "standard" research models, maybe never. B-complex is treated as an object but it is all wrong using active b12 and methylfolate. The only problem is that they based the They do single items, maybe even 2 or 3, not 4 items as an object and then stacking another 6 critical cofactors or so to get the first 4 working and another 3 or more major modifiers. The models they use and hence the questions they ask can't ever find this. It is invisible. So for Cerefolin with NAC they don't (can't) recognize induced methyltrap/methylation block (paradoxical folate deficiency) when it hits their subjects upside the head. It's just "side effects", not a CRITICAL side effect, not a complete blocking of all that expensive Metafolin. So if they tried NAC on people without having had methylation startup, the side effects can be already existing symptoms, not side effects and hence invisible. The amount of MeCbl in Cerefolin with NAC isn't enough to generally start healing when taken purely orally. They don't have a theory or model that allows them to see all this. I see what works and come up with the theory

    I learned a long time ago that "side effects' are important. I learned that all the little details can be critical Patterns of side effects. Patterns of symptoms. Mashing it all together statistically gives the equivalent of mashed potatoes, the appearance of uniformity. I am, and probably most of us here are in the tails, outside of 95%, 2 standard deviations, in all sorts of these things. To heal myself I had to ask why I was on the outside. I can see now that the B-50 complex I took for decades was damaging me, making me sicker. The standard explanation was that it was "out of balance" with the arbitrary 50mg of each. These statements were made even way back in the 60s about these supplements. Now it is obvious how it was out of balance. So, look at the dates. The newest posts reflect the newest understandings. and newest models. Also, I have been exploring ways to make the startup more comfortable. Some people react differently and some tremendously more intensely and some both and discover the reasons. As reasons are understood, changes can be made. I'm working on a post that will modify startup procedure and will likely have that later today or tomorrow or maybe a little longer. It's going to be more modular.
    ahmo likes this.
  16. knackers323

    knackers323 Senior Member

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    Hi @Freddd

    Did you find that both meb12 and adb12 did absolutely nothing without the other one?
  17. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    NOPE. I had huge startup from MeCbl, and 9 months latter, quite large startup from AdoCbl. In the N=1000 questionnaire development study I did 5% approximately had that happen.
  18. knackers323

    knackers323 Senior Member

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    Sorry, 5% had the same response as you or me? I am finding that both don't really have any effect without the other one. Do you hear this frequently? I thought the body could turn one into the other. Maybe my body cannot do this? It does no seem to matter if i have the other two from the deadlock quartet. And I seem to need big doses to get effect.
  19. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    5% were deadlocked, not able to start methylation without AdoCbl and maybe more unable to convert AdoCbl to MeCbl

    Do you hear this frequently? I thought the body could turn one into the other.

    To a limited extent. And it takes having enough AdoCbl and Carnitine to produce the ATP anyway. The body can be sufficient and the brain very deprived. Mine was limited enough that after 9 months on MeCbl I had major startup effects both in body and CNS when starting AdoCbl. Methylfolate is required for both AdoCbl and MeCbl.

    Other deadlocks can be SAM-e, TMG, Vit D, magnesium, zinc, D- ribose, biotin and just about any vitamin.
  20. knackers323

    knackers323 Senior Member

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    But most of the time people wi heal with the quartet?

    Is there any way to determine what vitamin may be responsible for the deadlock other than trial and error?

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