Overmethylating but need supplements

[skyebean]

@caledonia I've been taking a few different supplements to reduce sulfur and ammonia. My reading started at the >1600, and within about a week of the supps it went down to >400. I took a little break, and my reading went back up the >1600. I've been doing sparga and molybdenum, and my readings have started going down again. In the past two days I've been doing bentonite twice a day and my readings have dropped down to <200.

Does this mean that I shouldn't have sensitivity to methyl donors anymore? I'm still very confused about how BHMT + CBS makes you sensitive to methyl donors. I don't quite understand what is happening to the water leaking out of the tub - though I think it causes excess ammonia. Also, right before I started doing methyl supps, I did a 6 week 'detox' with bentonite, and my temps went up to 98.6 from that. (they went over that as I started adding methyl donors)

I never had overmethylation issues until I had been taking TMG for awhile. I had been doing other methyl donors before that - including methyl b12. Once I'm overmethylated even eating a salad will send me over. Do I understand the bathtub analogy if I think that the TMG essentially filled my tub enough to start leaking out of the hole? I watched a video by Andrew Rostenberg, and could see where excess neurotransmitters turned into ammonia, but I'm not sure about what it is about overmethylation that causes anxiety... Is that excess cortisol or adrenaline? I have doubts about my GABA/glutamate balance being an issue, because since I've been doing all of this, I can no longer tolerate GABA. It makes me panic (when it used to feel great). I know that's a side effect of taking too high of a dose of GABA, so my assumption that anything additional just sends that over the top.

I'm thinking I might need to just stay off of everything to let the methyl donors get used up, but I'm not sure if that will work....or if I got my methylation process going, and now there's no backing down.

If you don't have COMT issues, and you get your sulfur/ammonia down, what else would cause methyl donor sensitivity? I know you are seriously sensitive. What causes that?

 

[caledonia]

@caledonia I've been taking a few different supplements to reduce sulfur and ammonia. My reading started at the >1600, and within about a week of the supps it went down to >400. I took a little break, and my reading went back up the >1600. I've been doing sparga and molybdenum, and my readings have started going down again. In the past two days I've been doing bentonite twice a day and my readings have dropped down to <200.
Does this mean that I shouldn't have sensitivity to methyl donors anymore?

All great questions. After you reach your goal on the urine sulfate, Heartfixer says to stay on the supps/diet for another month.

The pattern of your results is different from mine. Mine was 1200 (elevated), but it took weeks and weeks for it to come down. Then it finally got to 800 and then that was the hard-to-read in-between 600 number. It never got lower. I finally gave up and tried some methylcobalamin, and I was able to tolerate it.

Yours is going up and down rather quickly. How much moly are you taking? Yasko says 75mcg, which is what I was doing.

I'm still very confused about how BHMT + CBS makes you sensitive to methyl donors. I don't quite understand what is happening to the water leaking out of the tub - though I think it causes excess ammonia. Also, right before I started doing methyl supps, I did a 6 week 'detox' with bentonite, and my temps went up to 98.6 from that. (they went over that as I started adding methyl donors)

I've never heard a satisfactory answer to this. The best one I've heard is the methyl groups go shooting down the CBS drain, and because things are clogged up at SUOX, they go off into creating inflammation instead of glutathione. And that's why you get anxiety, head pressure, etc. Lowering sulfur and ammonia and taking moly will help fix the clog at SUOX. So those are sort of like scooping the hair out of the clog and using Drano.

I never had overmethylation issues until I had been taking TMG for awhile. I had been doing other methyl donors before that - including methyl b12. Once I'm overmethylated even eating a salad will send me over. Do I understand the bathtub analogy if I think that the TMG essentially filled my tub enough to start leaking out of the hole? I watched a video by Andrew Rostenberg, and could see where excess neurotransmitters turned into ammonia, but I'm not sure about what it is about overmethylation that causes anxiety... Is that excess cortisol or adrenaline? I have doubts about my GABA/glutamate balance being an issue, because since I've been doing all of this, I can no longer tolerate GABA. It makes me panic (when it used to feel great). I know that's a side effect of taking too high of a dose of GABA, so my assumption that anything additional just sends that over the top.

All the methyl groups would have an additive effect. So maybe you tolerate methylfolate, but once you add methylcobalamin, or TMG, then it's too much.

I'm also finding that eating veggies with a lot of folate is too much. I get metal detox symptoms. I'm not close enough to the edge to get flat out overmethylation though.

The bathtub analogy is for CBS, not overmethylation.

No longer tolerating GABA might be a good thing. After some time on methylation, I don't have to take a supplement any more, but when I discontinued, it was due to muscle testings showing my body didn't want it any more. I didn't want to try to take it and see what would happen; I've had too many adverse reactions to things.

I'm thinking I might need to just stay off of everything to let the methyl donors get used up, but I'm not sure if that will work....or if I got my methylation process going, and now there's no backing down.

Yes, this is a good plan. Get off all methyl supps while your doing the CBS treatment, which I'm assuming will be 8 weeks or so. This is where lots of patience comes in handy. Then when you've completed it, retry the methyl supps, but at a much lower dose.

If you don't have COMT issues, and you get your sulfur/ammonia down, what else would cause methyl donor sensitivity? I know you are seriously sensitive. What causes that?

Taking too high of a dose of methyl supps, potassium deficiency, metal detox. There may be other things.

 

[skyebean]

Yours is going up and down rather quickly. How much moly are you taking? Yasko says 75mcg, which is what I was doing.

Oof! I am taking the Seeking Health one at 500mcg. Is that a crazy amount?

All the methyl groups would have an additive effect. So maybe you tolerate methylfolate, but once you add methylcobalamin, or TMG, then it's too much.

So, I've always been able to tolerate loads of methylcobalamin, but not methylfolate. What does that mean?

The bathtub analogy is for CBS, not overmethylation.

Ooooohhhhhhh....... So I could maybe not be overmethylating, but over CBSing? Niacin stops the symptoms, though... ???

No longer tolerating GABA might be a good thing. After some time on methylation, I don't have to take a supplement any more, but when I discontinued, it was due to muscle testings showing my body didn't want it any more. I didn't want to try to take it and see what would happen; I've had too many adverse reactions to things.

You know, I've noticed that I am now getting overmethylation symptoms when I take any aminos now. Could that be a sulfur thing?

Taking too high of a dose of methyl supps, potassium deficiency, metal detox. There may be other things.

About metal detox.... How long does this process take? I know it must depend on what you're doing. I've done different detox supplements over the past year, and I'm wondering if that helped get the metals out. I know I was doing a ton better after taking bentonite for 6 weeks. That's supposed to attract metals as it goes through.

And one more thing on the potassium deficiency... I have the 99mg (mcg?) pills, and I only take one or two at a time. How are people getting in large amounts? Also, I feel like my body doesn't have a huge response to either potassium or magnesium, but I feel like I really need them. I'm concerned they're not getting into the cells. I read that taurine helps them get into the cells....but that's a sulfur supp, yes?

 

[skyebean]

Well, I'm not sure where to post this, but I have found the answer to the question I originally posted.

When I first started treating my methylation I had just read Methyl Magic, and had added a methyl b12/folic acid/b6 (I figured out the folic acid issue pretty soon after that), sublingual, TMG, and choline to my supplements. My body temp started to rise above normal, and I stopped taking my desiccated thyroid. The TMG stopped my brutal daily crashes. I was far from all the way better, but experiencing huge improvements. I don't remember at what point I started experiencing 'overmethylation' symptoms, but at one point I couldn't tolerate 50mgs of TMG, much less the the 1000 mgs I had been downing. In the beginning niacin knocked back my symptoms. In the beginning, I would flush from 50mgs (mcgs? sorry. I've been wanting to share this info for awhile, and I am not stopping to grab my bottles to see). Over time, the niacin worked less and less, and I had to take more and more to get the same effect.



The things that would give me the bad symptoms weren't just methyl donors. I couldn't take vitamin D, bitters, cod liver oil, primrose, zinc and Dr. Carolyn Dean's liquid magnesium were the worst. I couldn't do more than a nibble of Dr. Lynch's multi, and Dr. Yasko's All-in-One made me crazy, too.

This past spring, I decided to start taking adeno b12. Miracle of miracles! It made me feel happy, blissful, energized, and it knocked back my symptoms. I had a 12 hour day at Disneyland with my kids, full of energy, stable, calm, really happy mood. This was at the peak of the adeno working. The second day my crankiness came back in full force, and more adeno didn't make it better.

NAC worked for a super short time. I tried it while on vacation to my home town, and it helped me get through it. I got some energy back, and my mood lifted a bit...then it stopped working...

Finally, the niacin stopped working altogether. I had done tons of research trying to find out if anyone else had to take copious amounts of niacin to stop overmethlyation. From what I understand, it only takes a few pills and a few hours to knock it back. I was taking it every half hour for days on end. Once it stopped working, I decided to take the plunge and take methylfolate - Freddd style.

There are two main indicators that I was (what I thought was) overmethylating - my rage and my rise in body temp. I also experienced inflammation and exhaustion. Throughout this whole thing I have been using my body temp as feedback for where I'm at. I have thermometers all over the house, and I take my temp lots of times per day. When it starts creeping up, the short temper does, too. I'm home with my kids, and I need to keep track of what's going on for me, so I know when I'm more prone to yelling and getting more upset. I know to focus so much more on being patient when I see my temps creeping. Once the niacin stopped totally working, and nothing else worked, I was just so scared about what was happening. I had no answers.....then I started experimenting with methylfolate. That wasn't a straight line. I didn't do the whole deadlock quartet thing. I had tried acetyl carnitine, and it made me feel jittery and like crap....

It's been a good two weeks now that I've been consistently meeting that rise in temp and crazy irritation with methylfolate. At first, my symptoms also included pain behind my eyes, and it still includes tiredness and inflammation. My general level of inflammation has gone way done.

I am taking 400 mcgs of Jarrow's methylfolate whenever I have symptoms come on. I started taking Pure Encapsulations B-complex a week ago, and my methylfolate need went up from there. I take more, and then I stabilize. It's really great, because when I feel a need for other supps, I can take them and not go over the edge.

My supplement history was more complicated than what I've written, but these are the highlights that help tell my story. I am sharing it in case it can help shed light for anyone else. I didn't follow Freddd's protocol, but it seems clear that I have been experiencing the paradoxical folate deficiency thing. I think the supps that gave me symptoms that I thought were overmethylation were just getting methylation going, and thus causing the folate deficiency.

This is the best, strongest, and most stable I have felt since this journey began.

When I started I was experiencing PEM so badly that a couple of standing yoga poses could land me in bed for days. A weekend visit home to visit family could leave me in bed for 2 weeks. I was depressed, horribly irritable, erratic blood sugar, had gained a ton of weight....

Now, I do yoga and zumba every week. I don't just do them, I can work really hard, really exert myself, and I don't crash. I don't have to hold back at all. I actually am getting stronger. My inflammation has gone wayyyyy down. I am still working on my sleep. I have lost a ton of weight.... People comment that they can see in my eyes that I'm feeling so much better. The better I get, the farther away I get from where I was at my worst, the more I realize how bad I was - and I already thought I was pretty bad at the time.

I've had issues with chemical sensitivity my whole life, as well as issues with exercise intolerance. I was still really active, and seemingly pretty healthy....but issues were there. When I became pregnant with my second child is when the onset of the major illness set in. I started having mood and fatigue issues, my exercise tolerance went down, and I started having herpes outbreaks much more often. I thought it was pregnancy, but things just got worse. Both of my pregnancies ended up being c-sections (planned home births), and I'm sure those contributed as well....

I hope this information helps somebody....like I said, my supplement history was much more complicated, but these were the highlights. I just recently boxed up a huge portion of them, and set them aside. I've only got ten or so bottles of different things I use now. That feels like a huge improvement. I have so much more room in my cupboards and closet!

 

[Tomas]

Hey, how are you doing?

It's been a good two weeks now that I've been consistently meeting that rise in temp and crazy irritation with methylfolate.

That raise in temperature is something I have as well. Actually, it's my main symptom. I went into methylation with mfolate and mb12 hoping to get rid of it, but it seems that it only made it worse... Now I'm trying niacinamide to stop it. What's weird is that my temp is higher in the spring/summer season, which is alse the time when serotonin is higher... have you maybe observed that as well?

 

[skyebean]

I've noticed my temp is just higher when it's hotter - when it's going over. I've had to try other things, because my strategy stopped working. Interestingly, taurine has been the most effective long term solution, though not always perfect.

I have made close to a full recovery. My sleep is almost back to normal, and I'm healthy enough to take a HIIT (high intensity interval training) class once a week. I still am so sensitive to most supplements and even ibuprofen. I wonder what would happen if I ever needed medical care, and they pumped me full of drugs...

I have made an appointment with an acupuncturist to try to determine what the high temp (rage, inflammation, pain) reaction thing is. In some ways I'm healthier than before I got sick. I'm just really curious what is still so out of whack that I can't take krill oil (or vitamin D, propolis, herbal tea, camu camu, vitamin E, kelp, and more!). Seems like that should be better at this point.

We shall see if she can help.

 

[Tomas]

I've noticed my temp is just higher when it's hotter - when it's going over. I've had to try other things, because my strategy stopped working. Interestingly, taurine has been the most effective long term solution, though not always perfect.

It's great to hear you're getting better! Working out is one of the things I miss the most.
Did taurine help with your general symptoms or elevated temperature specifically? I did blood amino acids test and I'm still waiting for the results.
I also remember that you mentioned somewhere that water with lemon was helpful for the temp. Is it still working for you in that matter?

 

[skyebean]

It's great to hear you're getting better! Working out is one of the things I miss the most.
Did taurine help with your general symptoms or elevated temperature specifically? I did blood amino acids test and I'm still waiting for the results.
I also remember that you mentioned somewhere that water with lemon was helpful for the temp. Is it still working for you in that matter?

Thank you!!!!! It's amazing, and an accomplishment nobody else really understands (except my husband).

Yes, it keeps my temps stable. I also started to get this pain in my liver, and it went away with taurine. It has also helped my sleep recover. ANNNNNND it has hugely calmed down my nervous system. Even when I do over-whatever-it-is, I'm calmer than I used to be (unless it's really bad).

What I know is that taurine helps detox, raises testosterone, and that high estrogen can deplete it (that's right off the top of my head. There's more)

Yes. Lemon water worked briefly. Adeno b12 worked briefly. High dose methylfolate worked for awhile. I'm super, super curious about what is causing it. I wonder if it is some sort of back up in the liver - with the rage it would make sense. Or, maybe the hippocampus needs healing after all this time of being sick.

I don't know.

I can promise you that if I come with any definitive answers with my new acupuncturist, I will be sure to post them!!!

 

[Tomas]

Thank you!!!!! It's amazing, and an accomplishment nobody else really understands (except my husband).

Yes, it keeps my temps stable. I also started to get this pain in my liver, and it went away with taurine. It has also helped my sleep recover. ANNNNNND it has hugely calmed down my nervous system. Even when I do over-whatever-it-is, I'm calmer than I used to be (unless it's really bad).

What I know is that taurine helps detox, raises testosterone, and that high estrogen can deplete it (that's right off the top of my head. There's more)

Great news, thanks!
Funny thing is that I already bought taurine 2 months ago, but waited until I do amino acid test. I'm going to definitely try it out. How much taurine do you take?
I checked on wikipedia and it seems that you need 3 things to properly synthesize taurine in your body: vitamin B6 (p5p), molybdenum and heme (iron). Somewhere else I found that niacin is also necessary. I was B6 and molybednum deficient for a long time for sure.

 

[skyebean]

O

Funny thing is that I already bought taurine 2 months ago, but waited until I do amino acid test. I'm going to definitely try it out. How much taurine do you take?
I checked on wikipedia and it seems that you need 3 things to properly synthesize taurine in your body: vitamin B6 (p5p), molybdenum and heme (iron). Somewhere else I found that niacin is also necessary. I was B6 and molybednum deficient for a long time for sure.

oofa! So sorry about my late reply! I usually take 1000 mgs three times a day,

I could have sworn my taurine had b6 in it, but my NOW brand does not. Maybe I started with a different brand.

 

[Tomas]

O

oofa! So sorry about my late reply! I usually take 1000 mgs three times a day,

I could have sworn my taurine had b6 in it, but my NOW brand does not. Maybe I started with a different brand.

No problem! Actually I tried taurine today, but it turned out I cannot tolerate it, just as other sulphur containing supplements... Hopefully supplementing molybdenum helps me both to create taurine and be able to supplement taurine.

I remember that you mentioned somewhere that black walnut helped you. Do you still recommend it?