High Dosage methylfolate users

[heyitisjustin]

That may be a clue then. I generally find I need to divide my daily potassium dose into 4 doses with one dose at bedtime or middle of the night so as to not wake up in trouble. Reducing the folate won't likely affect the potassium need to any significant effect

Low potassium is waking you up? Is it waking you up due to other side effects? I am wondering as my main problem is waking up every 2/3 hours and I am having trouble determining why.

I thought potassium decreased methylfolate absorption. I had been saving all my potassium to the evening. Should I be taking it an hour after methylfolate (does it need more time)? Does it matter how soon after taking potassium I take more methylfolate?

 

[heyitisjustin]

I have been trying to combat my adrenal fatigue for years and i take adrenal glandulars, pantethine, pregenenolone, pantothenic acid, adaptogens, and vitamin c. Is there anything stronger for raising cortisol levels? I seem to always be exhausted.

From what I recall, Licorice will maintain cortisol levels, keeping them high longer

 

[heyitisjustin]

Hi everyone,
I've been reading posts on this site off and on for about a year and seeing a doctor in Texas. I was trying to learn and get better without bothering anyone without a post but do not seem to be getting anywhere. I would like your opinions of the 2 supplements that a doctor has had me on for the last year and the IV I'm being offered now. He says according to his specialized testing my inflammation has gotten better but I really don't feel much better (still tired, feel like I drag myself around, food issues, histamine issues, colder than everyone despite being on thyroid meds and more). Now he is offering me an IV of Glutathione and other stuff he's added to it.

From what I recall, Glutathione reduces methylation this seems the opposite of what you want

 

[heyitisjustin]

@zzz0r, yup, I ditto this. My cortisol is now back up into normal range but when naturally lower at night my body is cranking out adrenaline to counter the inflammation in my sore gut. It comes with mild insomnia (usually can get back to sleep after about an hour) but when I do sleep I wake about every two hours likes clockwork with each surge and hot flash to go with it (ugh!) I have a probable ulcer which seems to be healing. I have had severe muscle tension for YEARS which is primarily on the right side. I get a side stitch too. All this is better tho since getting on methylation support. My cortisol came back up fairly quickly by adding more animal protein to my diet but I think my adrenals are still healing, and certainly they are still getting beat up until my body completely heals. I'm getting there!

Any success on your sleep? Did you manage to get your inflammation down? I think I have the same problem. My hsCRP is through the roof and I wake up every two hours.

 

[ahmo]

@heyitisjustin My sleep issues disappeared after I'd gotten to saturation doses of B12.

 

[Freddd]

Low potassium is waking you up? Is it waking you up due to other side effects? I am wondering as my main problem is waking up every 2/3 hours and I am having trouble determining why.

I thought potassium decreased methylfolate absorption. I had been saving all my potassium to the evening. Should I be taking it an hour after methylfolate (does it need more time)? Does it matter how soon after taking potassium I take more methylfolate?

@heyitisjustin,

I find that I have to take methylfolate at least 3 times a day to keep things under control. I take one dose at bedtime minus 1 hr, one at wakeup and one in late afternoon. From what I have read potassium might interfere with mfolate. So I try to take potassium at least an hour after folate, all my folate is on empty stomach.

Potassium I also take 3 or 4 times a day; 1000mg at each of 2 meals, 300mg at bedtime, and often an hour after my late afternoon folate an hour before dinner because I have to get it through the system before I add 1000mg or it doesn't work for my stomach.. Food contained potassium takes 14 hours to reach serum peak. Potassium with water hits serum peak in maybe 60-90 minutes. An article RichVK posted back when, showed that people with CFS/FMS have low tissue potassium levels, don't have it to transfer to tissues or at least not fast enough.

If I get a little on the low side of the range, I wake up with painful leg spasms. Potassium is transferred into the tissues all day whatever isn't used on the spot. At night dinner over at 8 is useful in having potassium peak reached at 10 the next moring. The late morning meal I eat might be serum peak about 2 am. I generally wake up with spasms at 4-5 or so. The bedtime small dose prevents that. Good luck in figuring out ther timing you need for night time.

 

[heyitisjustin]

@heyitisjustin My sleep issues disappeared after I'd gotten to saturation doses of B12.

You had the wake every two hours thing too? Was yours inflammation related?

 

[Freddd]

From what I recall, Glutathione reduces methylation this seems the opposite of what you want

It will just plain stop methylation hard for many people. It may be dependent upon dose. However, 10 of 10 people who were having successful healing had the healing completely stopped by glutathione and damage done in a trial I participated in with 9 others. We were all taking the deadlock quartet (AdoCbl, MeCbl, l-methylfolate and l-carnitine) successfully and we all had "glutathione detox" (methyltrap) with returning of recent gotten rid of symptoms.

 

[kyzcreig]

my understanding is that glutathione becomes an antagonist of b12 when pro-oxidation is sufficiently supressed. I think it really depends on your situation. If your mitochondria are dysfunctional and pumping out loads of free radicals, then anti oxidants might be more important than fixing methylation in the short term. Radical Nitrogen and Oxygen species down regulate many enzymes include the SAMe-synthase (this was true in my case). And the only upregulator is glutathione. Not surprisingly my methylation improved with glutathione.

luckily there's simple diagnostics to check e.g. Genova's Oxidative Stress Analysis.

 

[Freddd]

my understanding is that glutathione becomes an antagonist of b12 when pro-oxidation is sufficiently supressed. I think it really depends on your situation. If your mitochondria are dysfunctional and pumping out loads of free radicals, then anti oxidants might be more important than fixing methylation in the short term. Radical Nitrogen and Oxygen species down regulate many enzymes include the SAMe-synthase (this was true in my case). And the only upregulator is glutathione. Not surprisingly my methylation improved with glutathione.

luckily there's simple diagnostics to check e.g. Genova's Oxidative Stress Analysis.

Hi Krzcreig,

I know why glutathione causes me "catastrophic b12 deficiency". I have adult onset CblC disease. That is characteristic of it because of a polymorphism in the genes. In a group of 10 people including me who did a trial, 100%, every one of us, and we were all deficient for different reasons, every person developed the same situation with only time to onset varying. Every person trying it who had significant recovery with MeCbl, AdoCbl, l-methylfolate and L-carnitine (deadlock quartet), had methyltrap and the start of demyelination in the CNS. A researcher I spoke with said "glutathione is too dangerous to take". Everybody had already taken care of getting their mitochondria operational. So while I know why for me, it is way too rare for that many people to all have it when they had become B12 deficient for all sorts of reasons.

They all had well functioning mitochondria once they had the Deadlock Quartet in them and had good methylation and good ATP generation. Besides that glutathione is not an antagonist for B12. It combines with MeCbl or AdoCbl chemically on contact, like cyanide, making glutathionylcobalamin, an inactive junk cobalamin, which is rapidly excreted by the kidneys, like the cyanocobalamin that cyanide makes. It's a simple oxidation reaction with cobalamins of lower (+1 or +2 oxidation state, MeCbl, AdoCbl for example). The CblC protein is supposed to protect the B12 from glutathione.

 

[ahmo]

You had the wake every two hours thing too? Was yours inflammation related?

Difficulty getting to sleep, waking easily, difficulty returning to sleep. There was still inflammation after the B12. About a year later I started LDN, which made a big impact on inflammation.

 

[AlmostEasy]

Hello high dose methylfolate users! I have a proposition for those interested.

A few members and I have purchased methylcobalamin powder from China to do with as we pleased and it was a successful endeavor. We exchanged contact information, payments were sent in, and the product was received and low and behold it turns out it was not methamphetamine it was actually decent quality methylcobalamin in bulk, at a great price.

This lead us to searching for other things that typically are overly expensive in terms of those that need significantly higher dosages of the substance than normal, namely, methylfolate. I myself am using 20mg - 30mg a day and if I could have as much as I ever wanted and cost wasn't an issue I would be absolutely ingesting 45mg. I let my cycle slide during the night and I wake up feeling like crap every day basically for the fact that I just can't afford it. I'd been using Magnafolate-C from Methyl-Life and it just wasn't up to par for me and another member (for unexplainable reasons, it is nearly identical to Metafolin in theory). It was a good source though of high dose folate. We have resolved to go back to popping 20-30 Metafolin tabs a day.

After this mecbl adventure though we decided to search Alibaba for methylfolate and it turns out that they sell it. I contacted the vendor and they gave me the following information:

L-5- methyltetrahydrofolic acid calcium

1. Price: USD229 / 30 g

Shipping fee: USD26
SUM: USD255 for 30 g, including DHL shipping to USA door to door .
2. Delivery: within 2~3 days after receipt of payment
3. Payment method:T/T (T/T fee:USD9) ，BitCoin , WU , Moneygram , Coinstar , secure payment orders (secure fee:USD13 )
4. Shipping methods: DHL, TNT, EMS, AIR POST
5. Validity of price: 2 months

I then inquired if it was in fact the pure isomer product such as those sold as Metafolin / Deplin or if it was racemic (which would require a double dose) and he has told me that it is in fact the pure isomer form. This is exciting news.

Let me break down the price for you:

EDIT - I messed up the days for 45 mg. The months are correct.

Right now if I wanted 30 mg / day of PipingRock Metafolin @ $11.99 for 120 tabs (120 mg) I'd be paying $89.93 / month. I would save $82.28 / month (91% less cost) IF this was an equivalent product. If I had to guess I'd say I'd require more for the same effect but with this price... so what? Maybe I'll save only $75 instead. Darn.

So the pricing is obviously unbelievable but how would this compare to Metafolin, chemically? Let's look at the different methylfolate types:

The vendor claims that this is L-MTHF, calcium salt based, pure isomer. Theoretically it should be identical. There are vendors on there actually claiming to be selling actual Deplin itself but their minimum purchase amounts were huge.

I was not able to determine if this was a cyrstalline salt (Metafolin / Magnafolate-C) or amorphous salt (Extrafolate). Amorphous salts degrade faster and over 12 months can degrade by as much as 16%+ as opposed to 1-2% as a crystalline salt. Again at this price, I don't really care. The certificate of analysis will tell the manufacture date.

This inherently carries risk as this vendors product hasn't been tested and it is a different one than from where we received the methylcobalamin but @Greyone, an additional member, and I are willing to give this a shot but we'd like to split the cost / risk a bit more.

I would like to get as serious as I can about the healing process and I don't enjoy the fact that I'm unable to keep my methylation cycle going fully and at all times to promote this. I'm going to do what it takes and it looks like this might be a win win. The bigger the split the less risk for all. Once we do 1 run we'll know for sure if it's good and can then purchase more if need be for a longer supply.

If interested send me a message and we can discuss details of how we did payment / shipping etc.

Thanks!

 

[ahmo]

@Johnmac check this out. Also, john, I remembered to tell you that I had great results w/ folate in footbaths, too. cheers.

 

[Johnmac]

Thanks - nice bit of research. I’d found people selling m-folate on Alibaba, but CFS & work have prevented me from doing anything about them yet. Thanks for the reccy.

I do tend to trust Chinese sources on Alibaba, as I’ve bought other things from them (e.g. DMPS) & found them to be of good quality, with quality certificates etc.

$229 for 30 grams = $7.63 per gram.

Which divided by 1,000 = less than one cent per milligram.

I am presently paying 14.4 cents per milligram for the Solgar.

Presently I’m on 9.6 mg m-folate per day: I guess you are a high user.

Re those huge minimum orders: I’ve found the Chinese will come down in quantities if it’s the difference between an order & no order.

Thanks again...

 

[Johnmac]

@Johnmac check this out. Also, john, I remembered to tell you that I had great results w/ folate in footbaths, too. cheers.

Thanks for the heads-up @ahmo, or I probably would have missed it.

Your 'great results' from methylfolate in footbaths suggests that it it crosses the skin barrier well. That's most encouraging.

I've just put on my first 'bandage os m-folate & mB12 - I'll let you know how it goes.

One thing that struck me when scrunching up the B12: should one do that in the dark?

And I'm combing the B12 & folate in the one gooey mix - is that kosher?

 

[Johnmac]

My low-K signal is heart palps. (Cramps take longer.) Drinking a coconut or taking a potassium chloride cap stops them in 2 or 3 minutes. Or is that maybe placebo effect?

@heyitisjustin,

I find that I have to take methylfolate at least 3 times a day to keep things under control. I take one dose at bedtime minus 1 hr, one at wakeup and one in late afternoon. From what I have read potassium might interfere with mfolate. So I try to take potassium at least an hour after folate, all my folate is on empty stomach.

Potassium I also take 3 or 4 times a day; 1000mg at each of 2 meals, 300mg at bedtime, and often an hour after my late afternoon folate an hour before dinner because I have to get it through the system before I add 1000mg or it doesn't work for my stomach.. Food contained potassium takes 14 hours to reach serum peak. Potassium with water hits serum peak in maybe 60-90 minutes. An article RichVK posted back when, showed that people with CFS/FMS have low tissue potassium levels, don't have it to transfer to tissues or at least not fast enough.

If I get a little on the low side of the range, I wake up with painful leg spasms. Potassium is transferred into the tissues all day whatever isn't used on the spot. At night dinner over at 8 is useful in having potassium peak reached at 10 the next moring. The late morning meal I eat might be serum peak about 2 am. I generally wake up with spasms at 4-5 or so. The bedtime small dose prevents that. Good luck in figuring out ther timing you need for night time.

 

[Johnmac]

From what I recall, Licorice will maintain cortisol levels, keeping them high longer

I found hydrocortisone pretty good. Taking 20mg or less means you can't compromise your adrenal performance long term, according to the guy who wrote the book on this.

Liquorice helped, but then sent me over the top with too much cortisol (lots of anxiety). I think it causes you to hang onto it more.

But to answer your question, the @Freddd Protocol has had a better & quicker effect on my adrenals than anything. I have dropped my hydrocortisone doses down to near-nothing, from 20mg/day.

 

[ahmo]

One thing that struck me when scrunching up the B12: should one do that in the dark?

And I'm combing the B12 & folate in the one gooey mix - is that kosher?

I'm not doing it in the dark, but out of direct light. I do B2 and B12 together, don't see why folate + B12 wouldn't work.

My low-K signal is heart palps. (Cramps take longer.) Drinking a coconut or taking a potassium chloride cap stops them in 2 or 3 minutes. Or is that maybe placebo effect?

placebo? and it works reliably? placebo, not.

 

[Johnmac]

I'm not doing it in the dark, but out of direct light. I do B2 and B12 together, don't see why folate + B12 wouldn't work.

placebo? and it works reliably? placebo, not.

Okay, thanks, I won't scrunch up the B12 it in full light.

Re K: No, I meant placebo because Fred said the response times were much longer than that. For me, almost instant. Placebo for the speed, not the fact that it works per se.

Anyway: my important question (if you would be so kind) relates to my first attempt at the transdermal B12/folate:

Last night I scrunched up m-folate & mB12 tabs, mixed them with hand lotion & alcohol, & applied the mix to my inner arm under a bandage. It went dry fairly quickly - chunks of dried-out folate/B12 started falling out after an hour or two. That was either body heat or the alcohol maybe.

So I took it off the bandage & simply wet it with water, then put it on again. That helped.

But when I woke this morning it was completely dried out again - tho nearly all the pink had gone, suggesting the B12 was absorbed. Plus I only needed 7 hours sleep, & did not take an hour and a half to wake up, suggesting something is working.

But dry powder presumably won't cross the skin barrier, so I wonder how to keep it wet for maximum absorption?

Thanks again - getting there...

 

[ahmo]

@Johnmac I always have some residue left. Maybe the alcohol is making it dry out faster. Do you use butter or coconut oil? You might try that. Ghee would be fine. Or just the lotion. I've used a very solid mixture of cocoa butter, I've also used more liquidy lotion, coconut oil alone. All of them have absorbed. It's just been a matter of finding which is most convenient and least messy. Coconut oil plain irritated my skin.