Glutathione: Is more better?

[alex3619]

@Gingergrrl, I was suggesting trying it via oral absorption rather than lung ... its supposed to go above the tongue but this is for lung absorption.

I do not know for sure what is going on in the lungs, I was just citing reasons to consider. It could be good or bad at different doses or for different patients.

I am dubious of glutathione skin creams. How is it dispensed? The right dispenser with the right formulation might be OK, but it would be easy to make such a cream that does not do anything, and glutathione will not be well absorbed. I would like to know how much could be absorbed even with specialized formulations.

The strongest method I ever found for me was Immunocal, a cold processed whey powder. It got me through university to finish my biochem degree. IV glutathione not only can be too much too fast, but many tissues cannot physically absorb it. Immunocal stimulates natural synthesis, NAC bypasses tissue absorption issues, but direct glutathione cannot be used by all tissues. They simply cannot absorb it due to a lack of the right cell membrane receptors and channels.

There are a few other new varieties of methods to deliver or induce glutathione synthesis, but I have not investigated them enough to comment.

However direct glutathione supplementation will substantially increase liver glutathione, and if the liver has plenty then more precursor substrate can be spared for other tissues.

From what I recall the two tissues that most readily absorb glutathione are the liver and heart, but its been so very long since I read about this stuff.

 

[alex3619]

It sounds like you are saying nebulization is one of the stronger methods and that if someone has side effects, it might be a good thing?

If side effects are occurring its worth testing other methods. Nebulization may lead to too much being absorbed in the wrong place. Which is why I suggested under the tongue as an alternative. That would test the impact of the absorption at a different location.

Most of what we think and do in this area is hypothetical. There is not enough good science. So how a patient actually responds is more important than theory.

 

[Gingergrrl]

@Gingergrrl, I was suggesting trying it via oral absorption rather than lung ... its supposed to go above the tongue but this is for lung absorption.

Sorry I misunderstood and it sounds like you are suggesting that putting the mouth piece of nebulizer under the tongue would be a sublingual vs. lung absorption method? Would this be to make it more systemic for the rest of the body? I know my doc wanted it specifically to go into my lungs but also be systemic.

I do not know for sure what is going on in the lungs, I was just citing reasons to consider. It could be good or bad at different doses or for different patients.

Thanks and was just curious.

I am dubious of glutathione skin creams. How is it dispensed? The right dispenser with the right formulation might be OK, but it would be easy to make such a cream that does not do anything, and glutathione will not be well absorbed. I would like to know how much could be absorbed even with specialized formulations.

I got a special version of the skin cream with literally no preservatives of additives and it is dispensed in "Emu Oil" and kept in the fridge in syringes. Each dose is supposed to be 250 mg but I am using smaller amounts to start. I really cannot comment on how well it is absorbed but it is from one of the top glutathione pharmacies in the country and I can feel an effect from it so it must be doing something (although nothing compared to an IV or nebulizer of course.)

The strongest method I ever found for me was Immunocal, a cold processed whey powder. It got me through university to finish my biochem degree. IV glutathione not only can be too much too fast, but many tissues cannot physically absorb it. Immunocal stimulates natural synthesis, NAC bypasses tissue absorption issues, but direct glutathione cannot be used by all tissues. They simply cannot absorb it due to a lack of the right cell membrane receptors and channels.

I will google Immunocal and not familiar with this one. My MCAS doc said that NAC is not tolerated by most with MCAS and did not feel I should try it and that glutathione was safer than NAC (in my case.)

There are a few other new varieties of methods to deliver or induce glutathione synthesis, but I have not investigated them enough to comment.

I know there are IV and injections which my doc does not endorse plus nebulizer, skin cream, nasal, etc which she does.

However direct glutathione supplementation will substantially increase liver glutathione, and if the liver has plenty then more precursor substrate can be spared for other tissues.

When you say "direct" absorption do you mean the nebulizer or some other method? I am wondering in my case if the liver is not detoxing it fast enough and it is building up and that is why I feel the "fake" flu/fever. I say "fake" b/c it feels like 103 fever when it happens but my temp is barely above 97 degrees.

From what I recall the two tissues that most readily absorb glutathione are the liver and heart, but its been so very long since I read about this stuff.

That's interesting and I did not know that.

If side effects are occurring its worth testing other methods. Nebulization may lead to too much being absorbed in the wrong place. Which is why I suggested under the tongue as an alternative. That would test the impact of the absorption at a different location.

Most of what we think and do in this area is hypothetical. There is not enough good science. So how a patient actually responds is more important than theory.

Thanks and I will ask my doc at next phone consult re: the under the tongue method and had not heard of that before.

ETA: Alex, I know I am asking a lot of questions so no pressure to respond right away!

 

[alex3619]

I will google Immunocal and not familiar with this one. My MCAS doc said that NAC is not tolerated by most with MCAS and did not feel I should try it and that glutathione was safer than NAC (in my case.)

Many do not tolerate NAC, and can have side effects. Its why we look for alternative methods.

 

[alex3619]

When you say "direct" absorption do you mean the nebulizer or some other method?

I mean all glutathione supplementation. Its directly adding glutathione. To get a sure increase in all tissues you need to increase synthesis. So that leaves whey protein or NAC. Anyone allergic to milk and who cannot tolerate NAC is out of options I think. You can boost glutathione activity though, using things which improve how it works.

 

[alex3619]

Alex, I know I am asking a lot of questions so no pressure to respond right away!

No problems. If I have to slow down I am probably not even reading threads at the time. I will be resting or doing something else.

 

[Gingergrrl]

The strongest method I ever found for me was Immunocal, a cold processed whey powder. It got me through university to finish my biochem degree. IV glutathione not only can be too much too fast, but many tissues cannot physically absorb it. Immunocal stimulates natural synthesis, NAC bypasses tissue absorption issues, but direct glutathione cannot be used by all tissues. They simply cannot absorb it due to a lack of the right cell membrane receptors and channels.

@alex3619 I just re-read this this and realized I did not understand it the first time. So Immunocal is a whey powder that stimulates gluathione production but is not directly glutathione? I am not allergic to dairy and even with my severe MCAS, am able to eat several dairy products. I did not realize that only certain tissues can directly absorb glutathione and it sounds like the heart, lungs, and liver can (is this correct?)

No problems. If I have to slow down I am probably not even reading threads at the time. I will be resting or doing something else.

That is good to hear (b/c I know I am asking you a lot of questions!) and glad that you will rest or take care of yourself when you need to.

 

[alex3619]

I did not realize that only certain tissues can directly absorb glutathione and it sounds like the heart, lungs, and liver can (is this correct?)

Heart muscle and liver cells absorb glutathione. So do many others. I forget the list, I would have to investigate it again. Glutathione passes into the bloodstream via the lungs, but I am not sure which specific cell types absorb it. I do know that some immune cells in the mouth and nose absorb it. Maybe someone who has done the research on this more recently than I have can comment?

The liver is the huge glutathione source and destination. It can absorb, make or release glutathione, and it can pump it into the blood stream.

Immunocal was found to stimulate glutathione synthesis by accident. I think it was a Canadian researcher who made that discovery, in 1988. Whole intact milk proteins do this. When pasteurized the milk protein does not have this property. We avoid raw milk for good reasons, it can kill whole towns if it gets contaminated, but we lose something by pasteurizing too. Immunocal is not the only such product either, its just the one I used, one of the first, and expensive.

 

[ebethc]

@alex3619 I just re-read this this and realized I did not understand it the first time. So Immunocal is a whey powder that stimulates gluathione production but is not directly glutathione? I am not allergic to dairy and even with my severe MCAS, am able to eat several dairy products. I did not realize that only certain tissues can directly absorb glutathione and it sounds like the heart, lungs, and liver can (is this correct?)

Are mast cell issues tied to dairy?

 

[Gingergrrl]

Are mast cell issues tied to dairy?

No they are related to histamine but what triggers the degranulation of mast cells causing the release of histamine can vary from person to person.

 

[ebethc]

No they are related to histamine but what triggers the degranulation of mast cells causing the release of histamine can vary from person to person.

is dairy a common culprit?

 

[Gingergrrl]

is dairy a common culprit?

It doesn't really work that way and if you look at the SIGHI food list it rates each food from zero to three by amount of histamine it contains or liberates.

Food is only one category and others are food dyes, preservatives, additives, spices, medications, weather changes, strong smells, materials or fabrics, etc. For me the most lethal triggers are AZO and FD&C food dyes but everyone is different.

If possible, can we keep this thread about glutathione?

 

[JPV]

I have not taken the L. Reuteri that you sited above but my understanding (which could be wrong!) is that I should not take lactobacillus probiotics b/c of having MCAS and if I take any, they should be the Bifido strain. At present, I am not taking any probiotics out of fear how I could react MCAS/allergy-wise.

Ken Lassesen seems to be of the opinion that L. Reuteri is one of the only Lactobacillus strains that is suitable for anyone with ME/CFS. He also goes on the say that L-Acidophilus is probably the worst, as it kills off E.Coli which is purportedly very low in those with ME/CFS...

Should CFS Patients use Lactobacillus Acidophilus? -Probably not (CFS Remission)

He also recommends Mutaflor (E Coli Nissle) to repopulate E.Coli strains, if they are low.

 

[maryb]

I had terrible pains (presumably my gall bladder) when I tried IV glutathione, the nurse said my pain couldn't be due to the G?? so the next day (Sat) she upped the dose, the resulting pain was excruciating , no pain over the w/end, Monday she tried the reduced dose, pain again, they were bemused, they'd never seen this before.

I took half a tsp of liposomal G a few weeks later each day for a week as my liver levels were up, no side effect and a week later my levels were fine so I discontinued using it. I tried half a tsp a couple of days this week, no side effect, the day after I tried a whole tsp and felt dreadful. Coincidence? but its definitely one thing that varies tremendously in individuals. Some people feel wonderful after IV's!!

 

[Gingergrrl]

Ken Lassesen seems to be of the opinion that L. Reuteri is one of the only Lactobacillus strains that is suitable for anyone with ME/CFS.

This could be true and I have no idea! My concern is re: probiotics and mast cell disease and my readings keep leading to blogs and studies that say that lactobacillus bacteria are dangerous and only the bifido strain is recommended in MCAS.

 

[JPV]

This could be true and I have no idea! My concern is re: probiotics and mast cell disease and my readings keep leading to blogs and studies that say that lactobacillus bacteria are dangerous and only the bifido strain is recommended in MCAS.

Yeah, I've read accounts (though very rare) where people have gotten long term problems from consuming the wrong form of probiotics. I suppose it's best to be cautious when dealing with them.

 

[Gingergrrl]

Yeah, I've read accounts (though very rare) where people have gotten long term problems from consuming the wrong form of probiotics. I suppose it's best to be cautious when dealing with them.

I know it is very important that people consume the right form of probiotics and the gut/microbiome is a very complex topic but I am not an expert on any of it so unable to give specifics!

 

[Oci]

I mean all glutathione supplementation. Its directly adding glutathione. To get a sure increase in all tissues you need to increase synthesis. So that leaves whey protein or NAC. Anyone allergic to milk and who cannot tolerate NAC is out of options I think. You can boost glutathione activity though, using things which improve how it works.

@alex3619
I started today with 1/4 tsp of liposomal glutathione. I felt better than I have been. I am wanting to know more about glutathione. I am allergic to casein in dairy and so that leaves NAC.
Would I need to take NAC at the same time or before the glutathione?
How else can one boost glutathione?
Many thanks!

 

[alex3619]

NAC takes time to work. I do not think it matters when you take it.

Liposomal glutathione is a good way to take glutathione in my opinion, but there are many glutathione forumulations out there now and I don't know much about all of them.

Many of us get a good initial response to glutathione therapies. This does not always last, though in my case it lasted a year and a half, and it might have failed, in retrospect, because I started taking blood pressure meds which all seem to do bad things to me ... I only discovered this fairly recently. Indeed some of my more serious symptoms now appear to be directly caused by blood pressure meds. (I have both neurally mediated hypotension and high blood pressure, and taking meds to control bp in that situation may be problematic.)

Some people do not tolerate glutathione well at all, its about individual responses over time.

 

[Oci]

NAC takes time to work. I do not think it matters when you take it.

Liposomal glutathione is a good way to take glutathione in my opinion, but there are many glutathione forumulations out there now and I don't know much about all of them.

Many of us get a good initial response to glutathione therapies. This does not always last, though in my case it lasted a year and a half, and it might have failed, in retrospect, because I started taking blood pressure meds which all seem to do bad things to me ... I only discovered this fairly recently. Indeed some of my more serious symptoms now appear to be directly caused by blood pressure meds. (I have both neurally mediated hypotension and high blood pressure, and taking meds to control bp in that situation may be problematic.)

Some people do not tolerate glutathione well at all, its about individual responses over time.

Thanks, Alex. Do you remember how much and when you were taking it?
Sorry to hear about the blood pressure problems.