Enteroviruses - revisited

[Jesse2233]

My son tested positive for cocksackie b and Dr Chia only gave him equilibrant which unfortunately did not help. DHQ sounds like a newly discovered treatment. Have you used this and if so what type of success have you had?
Interesting @Hip @Jesse2233

Haven't noticed much from the DHQ to be honest but I just went up to 2

 

[Diwi9]

Dr. Chia published this paper regarding enterovirus DV68 last year. In it, he discusses the development of two new antivirals being developed.

Recently, a number of compounds were found to have broad-spectrum inhibitory activities against enteroviruses, including enterovirus D68. Hopefully, antiviral treatment will change the natural history of this disease.

Both citations were from 2015, with one paper out of UCLA, the other is mainly out of Europe (Belgium, Netherlands, Germany, USA).

 

[Never Give Up]

I still haven't tried anything specifically for the POTS. Midrodrine and Florinef are contraindicated as I appear to have hyper POTS and my blood pressure can get pretty high. I'm dubious about beta blockers given the side effects and possible risks related to MCAS.

I had forgetten about your hyper POTS. I'm sorry.

How about other Mast cell treatments, have you tried any of those yet?

Thanks for the link. Very interesting. I'll have to study it a bit to grasp the meaning in the details.

 

[JollyRoger]

@Diwi9
Does interferone penetrates the cns??
Because it works in some patients.

 

[Prof_X]

Hi there, I hope this is not off topic, but I'd like to share one thing I discovered and to ask a question also.

Firstly, I have Coxsackie B1 & A7, and so does my 9 years old daughter. We've bee struggling with this for 14 months, we've had viral myocarditis and the virus continues to go and reappear. I'm trying a variety of treatments. Doctors are not helpful.

What I have found that has worked very well for the acute active stage of the infection is systemic enzymes. With my last relapse I went from seriously ill to significantly better within one week taking 5 vitalzyme enzymes, three tines a day, and 3 serapeptase, three times a day.

I've learned that cancer cells and viral cells have a thick biofilm coating of fibrin around them which hides them from the immune system recognizing them. It's this biofilm coating that also give the coxsackie virus a means to attach to other cells and transfer its DNA into the DNA of the healthy host cell. Then viral replication begins.

This biofilm coating is made from proteins, and the enzymes break down and dissolve the biofilm coating around the virus. This allow the immune system to recognise the viral DNA and provided you keep your immune system strong, you will begin to target and destroy the virus.

Enzymes are non toxic, your body can easily handle massive dosages, and I can share that I have noticed a profound improvement with my myocarditis, my fatigue and my health in general and with the health of my daughter. The enzymes I have been using include serapeptase, protease, amylase, papain, bromelain, rutin, amla and lipase. There are quite a few products on the market containing those enzymes. Maybe some of you will want to consider this option and I hope it helps like it's helped us.

My question however is this. I've been searching for the answer to this question for a while and I can't find an answer online. If a coxsackie infection is chronic, and it continues to disappear and come back, when am I contagious?

Is my saliva and semen contagious with a persistent coxsackie infection and can I give this to my future partner through my saliva or semen?

I'm aware that coxsackie is most infectious for the first week, can be contracted from saliva, and remains in the stool for up to 8 weeks. But beyond that, does it persist in the saliva and semen permanently? @Hip you seem to be very knowledgeable in this subject, would you perhaps know the answer to this my friend?

I appreciate your replies. And best wishes to all of you.

EDIT: in addition to the enzymes i have been boosting my immune system with astragalus root, bael tree supplements, and turmeric supplements.

 

[Hip]

I've learned that cancer cells and viral cells have a thick biofilm coating of fibrin around them which hides them from the immune system recognizing them. It's this biofilm coating that also give the coxsackie virus a means to attach to other cells and transfer its DNA into the DNA of the healthy host cell. Then viral replication begins.

Would you have a reference handy for that? I couldn't find much online, apart from this article about biofilm-like structures in HTLV-1 infection.

It's possible that these enzymes may in part have reduced your myocarditis symptoms by an anti-inflammatory mechanism, as they have anti-inflammatory properties. I tried ViraStop® myself, but did not notice much improvement in my ME/CFS, except perhaps for a mild improvement in my brain fog symptoms and a slight increase in alertness and awareness after a couple of week on ViraStop. More info in this thread.

But perhaps such enzymes work better for acute enterovirus infections (where there are a lot of viral particles present) than they do for chronic infections (where there are few viral particles, and enterovirus lives inside cells as a non-cytolytic infection). Anyway, if it works for you, that's what counts.

My question however is this. I've been searching for the answer to this question for a while and I can't find an answer online. If a coxsackie infection is chronic, and it continues to disappear and come back, when am I contagious?

Is my saliva and semen contagious with a persistent coxsackie infection and can I give this to my future partner through my saliva or semen?

I'm aware that coxsackie is most infectious for the first week, can be contracted from saliva, and remains in the stool for up to 8 weeks. But beyond that, does it persist in the saliva and semen permanently? @Hip you seem to be very knowledgeable in this subject, would you perhaps know the answer to this my friend?

First of all, to put things into context, human beings often transmit infections of all sorts to each other. This goes on all the time. Humans are usually born infection-free, but by the time they are 2 years old, most will have already caught HHV-6, and most people pick up Epstein-Barr virus as a teenager. Cytomegalovirus can be picked up at any stage in life, and the older your are, the more likely you will have it. You may catch an EBV infection as a teenager that ends up giving you multiple sclerosis 20 years later (since EBV is linked to MS).

With viruses, it is usually in the acute phase of the infection that they are most contagious, and then the contagiousness goes down considerably in the chronic phase. Usually the infection in the chronic phase will be a latent (dormant) infection, kept under control by the immune system; however, if there is some temporary weakness in immunity, that infection can reactivate, and then it will likely be a bit more contagious.

But to answer you question: yes, you might conceivably pass your coxsackievirus to others via ordinary social contact; but equally, other people might pass their viruses and other pathogens to you, as lots of people in the population will have one or more coxsackieviruses or echoviruses in their body, as well as numerous other viruses and bacteria. A study (see table 2) on infants found that even at a very young age, 4% had CVB1, 7% had CVB3, 2% had CVB4 and 3% had CVB5.

 

[Hip]

Firstly, I have Coxsackie B1 & A7, and so does my 9 years old daughter.

By the way, you weren't tested at ArminLabs by any chance?

ArminLabs results always only show CVB1 and CVA7, no matter which coxsackieviruses you are actually infected with. This is because ArminLabs use CVB1 and CVA7 antigens to detect the whole range of Coxsackie A and Coxsackie B viruses.

So a positive CVB1 result at ArminLabs just means you have an infection with one (or more) of the six CVB1 to 6 viruses. So for example, your infection might be with CVB4, but your ArminLabs result would show CVB1.

Likewise, positive CVA7 result does not necessarily means you have an infection with CVA7, you could have an infection with one or more of the various CVA1 to 24 viruses. ArminLabs do not explain this on their tests results, so it leads to lots of confusion.

See this post for more info.

 

[Prof_X]

Hey @Hip ... I can’t remember many of the Sources I looked at, I went though so many, however I did find the following sources that mention similar things.

I’ve pulled things together from a number of sources and joined the dots really. For instance, the following article https://www.onlineholistichealth.com/enzyme-serrapeptase/ written by Dr. Michelle Kmiec on serrapeptase, explains how serrapaptase dissolves fibrin. Although she doesn’t mention viruses in this article.

In the following article, it’s explained that according to Dr. William Wong, ND, PhD:[v]

“… proteolytic or systemic enzymes do a number on the all-important exterior protein coating of the virus. They eat it! Remember the virus is active as long as its coating is intact. What happens when a virus cannot complete an Isoprin bond? Well, simply it becomes inert — harmless!”

http://www.losethebackpain.com/fight-viruses-with-enzymes/

Serrapeptase is an enzyme that the silk worm releases in order to digest the protein structure of their chrysalis. And it’s also capable of digesting the capsid coating around a virus. This seemed to have worked very well for me. I was quite ill on Monday, in 4 to 5 days taking large dosages of enzymes I’ve recovered remarkably quickly.

The following article is also quite interesting regarding some scientific studies into how enzymes can slow and stop the replication of HIV by way of a similar mechanism, digesting the proteins around viruses. http://www.enzymestuff.com/conditionviruses.htm

The following article http://eol.org/info/458 explains that “All viruses have a protein coat that protects these genes, and someare wrapped in a viral envelope of fat that surrounds them when they are outside a cell.”

So based upon similar information that I found, I seen a clear connection that suggested to me that enzymes and serrapeptase would dissolve the protein cover around coxsackie virus so the immune system would recognize it and destroy it.

I can say that my flu like symptoms got considerably worse the first 2 days I was taking enzymes, and I put this down to the fact that I started taking 24 of them daily, which is a lot, and that this may have caused a very quick die off of the coxsackie in it’s acute infection stage. So my immune system was over worked. But now I feel great and I’m working on boosting my immune system.

I’m thinking that if I keep the enzymes in my blood then there will not be a suitable environment for the virus to replicate and spread, should it reactivate from within my cells in the future.

Certainly as you mentioned, these enzymes do play an important role in reducing inflammation, which is also a contributing factor.

And as you mentioned yes, this seems to have an effect on the acute stage, but for the chronic stage, I don’t know. There’s not enough information our there. I’ve read that enzymes can possibly effect the cells intracellularly, but I wouldn’t say I’ve found anything concrete yet.

I’m trying to work out how I might be able to affect the coxsackie that may be hiding intracelluarly, if at all possible. Collodial silver is something I’m looking closely at and this appears to be promising. But there is very limited information and hard science on whether this is effective. My impression is that it is, but that is just my opinion based upon reading various sources.

Another area I’m looking into is Methylation. I’m just throwing that out there for now, I need to research more. But Methylation is connected to several epigenetic mechanisms that cells use to control gene expression (protein production). My feeling at this time is that this is an important area to research because I know viruses do effect Methylation, which has a direct influence on every cell in the body as well as the functioning of the immune system. Methylation also influences the absorption of nutrients and can help boost the immune system when working at optimal levels.

So a viral infection could theoretically resurface if we do not correct Methylation and the normal expression of genes. I need to research more about this however but it appears promising. There are simple tests and protocols to correct Methylation which is something I'm planning on doing.

I’ll share what I’m able to find anyway.

Thanks for your reply to my question, I do appreciate it. And yes, well spotted, I was tested by Armin labs. I had no idea that's how their testing worked. Thank you very much for pointing that out for me. I'll check out that article and look at getting tested by a different lab next time.

 

[Prof_X]

One final question @Hip, I read that other article. Thanks for that, good to know. Would you be able to recommend a laboratory that tests for the full range of Coxsackie Virus? Many thanks.

 

[Timaca]

@Prof_X ~ I have Cox B3 and B4 chronic infections. At times, my B4 antibodies are as high as the lab measures. I've had CFS since 2003. No one in my family, including my husband, have gotten sick. (I also have other chronic viral and bacterial infections).

I am tested for Cox B at Arup labs. Occasionally at Focus.

Best,

 

[consuegra]

http://cfspatientadvocate.blogspot.com/2017/06/dr-john-chia-and-enterovirus-old-hat.html

 

[Hip]

@Prof_X, thanks for those links. They are similar to the webpages I found previously about systemic enzyme supplements claiming to be antiviral: more marketing than scientific, with very few references to scientific studies.

From one of your links, I came across this list of studies on the effects of enzyme preparations like Wobenzym (Wobe-Mugos enzyme) or Phlogenzym on various viral infections. However, those studies are not standard antiviral studies, which normally would measure viral load before and after treatment; no such measurement are made, so I don't think we can conclude from these studies that such enzyme preparations possess antiviral effects.

They might be antiviral, but those studies don't really prove it. They just show that these enzyme preparations lead to reduced reported symptoms.

Thanks for that, good to know. Would you be able to recommend a laboratory that tests for the full range of Coxsackie Virus? Many thanks.

The only laboratory that Dr Chia finds to be sensitive enough to detect chronic coxsackievirus B infections is ARUP Lab in Utah. Their CVB test is here. It's expensive though, at $440.

Note though that viral myocarditis can be caused by several viruses, so coxsackievirus B may not necessarily be the virus causing your myocarditis.

 

[Prof_X]

Hi there @Timaca, thank you kindly for your reply and for suggesting those other laboratories. I’ll certainly look into them. I’m sorry to hear you’ve been struggling with this also. My heart goes out to you. Although it’s good to hear that your husband and children have not gotten sick. This is comforting to know and helps put my mind at ease. Thank you for sharing that.


Hi @Hip, not a problem regarding the links. And yes, I totally agree, finding any concrete scientific clinical studies into the effects of enzymes on viruses don’t seem to be available. I suspect funding for such clinical trials would not return a profit as enzymes cannot be patented. Under the circumstances however I was willing to take a leap of faith. Thank you for your messages however, you’ve been very helpful. I hope things improve for you. If I discover anything else I’ll surely return and share it with you all.


All the best.

 

[mrmichaelfreedmen]

Haven't noticed much from the DHQ to be honest but I just went up to 2

Same here. I went to 4 caps per day, no help.

 

[Hip]

I suspect funding for such clinical trials would not return a profit as enzymes cannot be patented.

Actually, antiviral studies are often performed initially in human cell lines in vitro (in a petri dish), or using mice, so they are not expensive. You don't need to do a clinical trial to test them. On PubMed there are thousands studies on herbs that have been tested for antiviral properties in this in way. So it would be easy enough to test such enzymes for antiviral properties.

That's not to say the enzymes in your Vitalzym product are not antiviral; some could well be; in fact the amla (Emblica officinalis) ingredient of Vitalzym is definitely antiviral for CVB3, and is in my list CVB antivirals, although note that amla is a herb, not an enzyme.

Some of the ingredients of Vitalzym like bromelain are immunomodulatory (they modulate or boost the immune system), and immunomodulators may fight viral infections just as effectively as antivirals.

But the most important thing is that you have observed Vitalzym helped your acute viral myocarditis symptoms, so that's all the evidence you need really.

 

[Hip]

Haven't noticed much from the DHQ to be honest but I just went up to 2

In this post I calculated that you would need a human injectable dose of 500 mg of DHQ to match the injectable mouse dosing used in the study. If we optimistically assume a 36% bioavailability when DHQ is taken orally with coconut oil, then that would require an oral DHQ dose of 1,400 mg daily to achieve the equivalent of a human 500 mg injection.

I am not sure why Dr Chia is recommending such a low dose of DHQ (he says start with one Swanson DHQ capsule of 45 mg daily, and then work up to two capsules daily).

 

[Jesse2233]

In this post I calculated that you would need a human injectable dose of 500 mg of DHQ to match the injectable mouse dosing used in the study. If we optimistically assume a 36% bioavailability when DHQ is taken orally with coconut oil, then that would require an oral DHQ dose of 1,400 mg daily to achieve the equivalent of a human 500 mg injection.

I am not sure why Dr Chia is recommending such a low dose of DHQ (he says start with one Swanson DHQ capsule of 45 mg daily, and then work up to two capsules daily).

Very interesting, he must not have done the calculations or he's slowly testing it to establish tolerance. In mice does DHQ clear tissue infection or just blood?

ETA - @Hip am I right that a dose of 1,400mg would mean 31 Swanson DHQ caps a day?

There are 60 in a bottle at $15, so it would be $7.50 a day, which I suppose is manageable if it works and one can tolerate the high dose

I wonder what the safe upper limit is for humans and if a higher dose formulation is available anywhere else

Chia should make an Equilibrant Plus with the right dosage of DHQ added

 

[Hip]

Very interesting, he must not have done the calculations or he's slowly testing it to establish tolerance. In mice does DHQ clear tissue infection or just blood?

ETA - @Hip am I right that a dose of 1,400mg would mean 31 Swanson DHQ caps a day?

They showed DHQ suppressed replication in the pancreas. The full paper is available to read on Sci Hub.

Yes, 31 Swanson DHQ capsules a day, but whether there might be side effects at that dose level, I am not sure. The fact that Dr Chia says start with 45 mg a day, and then if that's OK, work up to 2 x 45 mg a day suggests that some ME/CFS patients might be having trouble even with these low doses.

 

[Jesse2233]

The fact that Dr Chia says start with 45 mg a day, and then if that's OK, work up to 2 x 45 mg a day suggests that some ME/CFS patients might be having trouble even with these low doses.

Thanks Hip, I'll take a look at the paper. Maybe I'll try 3 DHQ tomorrow and keep building until I hit side effects

 

[Hip]

Maybe I'll try 3 DHQ tomorrow and keep building until I hit side effects

It is quite possible that with these lower doses of DHQ that Dr Chia recommends (45 mg to 90 mg daily), the benefits will only manifest on a timescale of many months. For comparison purposes, if you look at the results of the late Dr Lerner's study of Valtrex for EBV-linked ME/CFS (results shown in table 3 at the bottom of this post), treated patients had an average of a 2-point improvement on the EIPS scale, but you can see in table 3 that this improvement took place slowly, over 2 years.

So perhaps with these low doses of DHQ, we need to think in terms of 6 to 12 months for improvements to manifest.


If we were able to take higher doses of DHQ, comparable to the injectable DHQ doses used in the study, then the results I think would manifest much faster, probably in the order of weeks (in Dr Chia ribavirin study, he found ME/CFS patients showed marked improvements after 2 or 3 weeks on ribavirin, and we know that DHQ has similar potency to ribavirin).


One thing I am looking at is making some liposomal DHQ. You can make your own liposomal encapsulated supplements quite easy at home (see this video), using an ultrasonic jewelry cleaner (these cost $30 to $100). Liposomal encapsulated supplements are better absorbed, not quite as good as injections, but better than ordinary oral supplements.