Copper deficiency....?

[Sporty]

Okay, thanks. I believe Dr Cutler says hair tests give a fair picture of body copper levels, so it sounds like you're right.

Good luck with the detox. I presume you've looked up all the many things that reduce copper absorption & drive it out of the body.

The pyroluria crowd often complain of "copper dumping symptoms" when they process out copper too quickly. They aim for low & slow.

Good luck.

Hi yeah I've read up a fair bit on it and have my P to turn to for advice. You just follow what they suggest really. Good diet, supplements, sauna and enemas. That's about the crux of it. Symptoms come and come.....they tell me cause of the dumping. Who knows. We soldier on.....

 

[Freddd]

Just a note on my copper experience that appears duplicated in another person. I had plenty pof symptoms, ALL from the methylation group, but a narrow spread, with a serum level of 74 (72 is bottom, top was about 160 or so). After starting the titration, I would feel better for a day and then it got worse with a vengeance. I had worked up to 20mg daily before it would hold steady. At my next appointment the copper was down to 67. I have continued to heal visibly. It looks like when the processes using copper are started by taking so copper, more is required than is being given, like it is an on or off, not proportional to dose. This appears to cause a paradoxical looking copper serum level, that drops when copper is given until the intake is enough to supply the daily demand. The rate of visible healing went way up with that too.

 

[Jamo77]

Really glad you guys are talking about this. Just started taking copper this week and noticing my personality coming back. Crazy laughter and what I would term fire in the belly. Otherwise using freddds words I am completely flattened. Will also check out this Morley Robbins and his ideas on copper. My hair analysis from a couple of years back showed borderline low copper but massive levels of iron. Since then I megadosed on vitamin c so will probably be very deficient in copper. I do crave chocolate something crazy so maybe also a sign. The cravings have somewhat subsided since dosing up on cu. @Freddd and @Johnmac I heard one person say when they took copper at first it was almost sweet but once the body has enough it gave a metallic taste on the tongue - I assume they keep it on the tongue a bit to gauge this. Have you guys noticed such a sensation??

 

[Johnmac]

I took extrta 500mcg of copper 2x alongside my multimineral and am learning the hard way why a toxic person should not supplement copper no matter what

Would transdermal help? I crush up my copper chelate 2.5mg pill with a mortar & pestle, mix it with a bit of coconut oil, & strap it to my arm in a wetted compress.

 

[Johnmac]

Just a note on my copper experience that appears duplicated in another person. I had plenty pof symptoms, ALL from the methylation group, but a narrow spread, with a serum level of 74 (72 is bottom, top was about 160 or so). After starting the titration, I would feel better for a day and then it got worse with a vengeance. I had worked up to 20mg daily before it would hold steady. At my next appointment the copper was down to 67. I have continued to heal visibly. It looks like when the processes using copper are started by taking so copper, more is required than is being given, like it is an on or off, not proportional to dose. This appears to cause a paradoxical looking copper serum level, that drops when copper is given until the intake is enough to supply the daily demand. The rate of visible healing went way up with that too.

Thanks @Freddd. The upper daily limit for copper is supposed to be 10mg - but you're okay on 20?

I appear to have become copper deficient from too much zinc (treating pyroluria), and maybe C & B vitamins, plus a background of 3 years of Cutler chelation with high doses of alpha lipoic acid. My symptoms are more textbook than I've seen here: raging infections (presumably from neutropenia), crap mood, and pale & dizzy-when-standing (feels like anemia). I'm guessing the 'anemia' might be low iron or iron deficiency anemia - low copper causing low iron - but am open to suggestion.

Do you mind listing your symptoms (or linking to where you have already done so)?

Your observations about replenishing Cu are interesting. Are you suggesting there is a 'paradoxical copper deficiency', or am I misreading you?

I'm trying transdermal copper (crush up the pill & apply to the skin in a compress, mixed with some oil), which is working so far.

No blood tests yet, but everything improves as soon as I take copper, same as @Jamo77 above.

Jamo, I haven't heard about a 'copper taste test', though I do know that the World Zinc Symposium regards the much-vaunted zinc taste test as being not very useful. My copper pills tasted metallic from the beginning, & still do. (This is my second bout of -Cu this year: I had 2 months on copper supps earlier in the year.)

The chocolate craving sounds a bit more indicative, at a guess.

Dr Cutler writes that hair levels of iron have no connection to body stores.

After this experience, I'd extrapolate @Gondwanaland's dictum about taking too much of any one of the B vitamins to just about any vitamin or mineral. I aim to take a lot less supplements, & replace them with food sources.

 

[Gondwanaland]

Would transdermal help? I crush up my copper chelate 2.5mg pill with a mortar & pestle, mix it with a bit of coconut oil, & strap it to my arm in a wetted compress.

Later I found out that taking copper with zinc was fine. B2 and B6 deficiencies are huge limitations for copper supplementation

I appear to have become copper deficient from too much zinc (pyroluria), and maybe C & B vitamins, plus a background of 3 years of Cutler chelation with high doses of alpha lipoic acid.

Taking Zinc w/o Copper gave me severe anemia in just a few days (I was already borderline). ZInc alone definetly will impair copper absorption, causing Iron waste. High dose B vitamins can use up the minerals pretty quickly dueu to RBC and WBC synthesis. ALA, molybdenum and vit C will definetly deplete Copper.

neutropenia

Vitamin B6 and imune competence
Vitamin B-6 deficiency impairs interleukin 2 production and lymphocyte proliferation in elderly adults

I have checked my blood counts since 2013 and lymphocyte have been always borderline low, and during my worst moments (ER visits) they were WAY below range. However, I am finding it very tricky to supplement B6 on its own (it mediates T4 -> T3 conversion) even at doses below 5mg. The first other vitamin it depleted for me was B2 (while for most people it is B12 due to neuropathy, but I had serotonin syndrome first). And then you know the cascade effect on the other Bs.

 

[Johnmac]

Later I found out that taking copper with zinc was fine. B2 and B6 deficiencies are huge limitations for copper supplementation

Taking Zinc w/o Copper gave me severe anemia in just a few days (I was already borderline). ZInc alone definetly will impair copper absorption, causing Iron waste. High dose B vitamins can use up the minerals pretty quickly dueu to RBC and WBC synthesis. ALA, molybdenum and vit C will definetly deplete Copper.

Vitamin B6 and imune competence
Vitamin B-6 deficiency impairs interleukin 2 production and lymphocyte proliferation in elderly adults

I have checked my blood counts since 2013 and lymphocyte have been always borderline low, and during my worst moments (ER visits) they were WAY below range. However, I am finding it very tricky to supplement B6 on its own (it mediates T4 -> T3 conversion) even at doses below 5mg. The first other vitamin it depleted for me was B2 (while for most people it is B12 due to neuropathy, but I had serotonin syndrome first). And then you know the cascade effect on the other Bs.

Taking zinc without copper gave you anemia - presumably because you need the copper for iron synthesis?

I've got the reverse problem: I've become faint and pale a few days AFTER stopping zinc and beginning copper. I'm wondering if it's just an iron deficiency rooted in low copper, showing its face late in the piece...but I'm not sure.

So I need plenty of B2 & B6 if I'm supplementing copper? I've actually stopped B6 too, as I'm so pissed off with the mess supplements have got me into. However I gather from your links (thanks for those) that regular low doses of all these B vitamins are the go?

I hope you get well. Sounds an ordeal.

 

[CCC]

We might have been the taste-test people.

My son noticed that his copper supplement was quite yummy when he was deficient (serum), and disgusting when he wasn't. All he does is put his tongue on the pill.

But, we've since had to modify that a bit: at a neutral taste, the serum copper was high-ish, but the ceruloplasm was mid-range (where it's meant to be).

So now the supplement gets swallowed only when it tastes good. It isn't about metallic/non-metallic taste, but more about palatability.

On top of the B2 connection, you might want to read up on the iron and vitamin C. It's all so interconnecetd it's ridiculous.

 

[Jamo77]

Thanks @CCC. Has your son had big changes in his wellbeing overall with copper supplementation? He hasnt had the need obviously to scale upward like Freddd.

My peripheral neuropathy is gone with this copper supplementation. My memory and brain so much better.

Robbins seems to only recommended wholefood vitamin c.

I am taking the solgar chelated copper which he actually recommends amongst a couple of others. I am taking about 5 x 2.5mg a day at the moment.

 

[Gondwanaland]

Taking zinc without copper gave you anemia - presumably because you need the copper for iron synthesis?

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7447387
Ann Clin Lab Sci. 1980 Jul-Aug;10(4):338-44.
The role of copper in iron metabolism.
Chan WY, Rennert OM.
Abstract
The various roles played by copper in iron metabolism are reviewed. Copper may interfere with iron absorption by binding to mucosal transferrin. Mobilization of iron from mucosal, reticuloendothelial, and hepatic parenchymal cells may be effected through the action of ceruloplasmin. Copper may also participate in heme synthesis through the action of cytochrome oxidase. Reutilization of iron by the spleen reticuloendothelial cells is subjected to inhibition by excess copper.
PMID: 7447387 PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE

Definetly. Same for my husband who has completely different needs in comparison to mine.

I've become faint and pale a few days AFTER stopping zinc and beginning copper. I'm wondering if it's just an iron deficiency rooted in low copper, showing its face late in the piece...but I'm not sure.

Taking copper on its own was one of the worse experiences I ever had. It's a balancing act with Fe/Mn + Zn/Cu

I've actually stopped B6 too, as I'm so pissed off with the mess supplements have got me into.

Last year I sworn that I would never take a B vit on its own again.

regular low doses of all these B vitamins are the go?

Today I restarted a low dose B complex + minerals. I need them anyway, RBC and lymphocytes are always low, no matter how much meat I eat.

I hope you get well. Sounds an ordeal.

You too!

On top of the B2 connection, you might want to read up on the iron and vitamin C.

No way I can tolerate vit C supplements with low B6...

 

[aquariusgirl]

Check out Charles barker on you tube thinking moms revolution site.

 

[aquariusgirl]

Does anyone worry that oral copper will feed gut bugs? Fighting clostridia & yeast here ..., terrified to make that worse

 

[CCC]

Thanks @CCC. Has your son had big changes in his wellbeing overall with copper supplementation? He hasnt had the need obviously to scale upward like Freddd.

My peripheral neuropathy is gone with this copper supplementation. My memory and brain so much better.

Robbins seems to only recommended wholefood vitamin c.

I am taking the solgar chelated copper which he actually recommends amongst a couple of others. I am taking about 5 x 2.5mg a day at the moment.

I suspect we intervened before things got to the desperation level that Freddd did.

I understand the superiority of whole food vitamin C, and I agree. We're now in mandarin season here, so whole food is no problem at all.

 

[aquariusgirl]

Greg @ b12 oils thinks I have an iron deficiency. I worry about supping iron ...virulence factor for bugs, inflammatory etc. dunno what to do. Ferritin is about 55.

 

[Little Bluestem]

Are you taking any B2? I know Greg has recommended it to some people. In some cases, it can bring up iron.

 

[Lalia]

You have to look up the minerals interactions.
Just remembered of the B2 I love you topic, B2 activates the other Bs in the liver using Cu and Fe.

hi @Gondwanaland - I have been searching high and low for a reason why B2 may have tipped my cu deficiency over the edge. Is this right? B2 uses up Cu to activate the other Bs? So if I’d completely depleted my copper with molybdenum and then added B2, that would explain why my Cu deficiency symptoms have just floored me.

please let this be the answer. I’ve found it difficult to walk the last two days and that is a terrifying new symptom I’ve never had before.

 

[Swim15]

I didn’t read every page but I didn’t see anyone bring up Wilson’s. Anyone with low copper/ceruloplasmin should have a 24 hour urine copper checked. Could be toxic instead of deficient

 

[Methyl90]

Can anyone confirm or deny .... I seem to have read that copper deficiency causes the right side of the body less developed than the left side? @Freddd

 

[Swim15]

Can anyone confirm or deny .... I seem to have read that copper deficiency causes the right side of the body less developed than the left side? @Freddd

Have never heard anything even remotely suggesting this

 

[Methyl90]

Have never heard anything even remotely suggesting this

I'm pretty sure @Freddd talked about his personal experience regarding the right side of the underdeveloped body ... The cause I don't remember if it was attributed to the B12 deficiency or that of the copper deficiency.