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Bad experience with keto

Wishful

Senior Member
Messages
5,751
Location
Alberta
The good thing about cornstarch pancakes is that they seem to be completely deficient in anything other than starch molecules. No allergens, no nutrients, nothing to complicate things. I was trying to give my body a break from triggering reactions, and from the kynurenines produced from tryptophan, in the hopes that something would heal or reset. Didn't work for me. Maybe it would work for someone else.

I suppose there are other complication-free diets, such as only refined sugar or refined oil. Pancakes at least satisfy the mouth a bit; you can chew them. At some point I added baking powder, which improved texture a bit more, and I think I added oil too, after verifying that it didn't trigger symptoms. The ones made with non-boiling water were pretty depressing though. :meh:
 

Rooney

Senior Member
Messages
185
Location
SE USA
I had to quit keto as it raised my blood pressure noticably. I was on it a month. I still love the organic sunflower oil it had me discover. The diet did kill off some SIBO gut bugs though.
 

YippeeKi YOW !!

Senior Member
Messages
16,047
Location
Second star to the right ...
That's rough you're so sensitive to so many things. I'm pretty sensitive, but not like you. I found this and can't make heads or tails of it, but you probably can! https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24005963 There are more studies about this (which baffle me as well! :confused:)
@Mary
Yeah, it’s a biatch, but it’s not as tough as it was at the start, and I’m hacking away at it, a little at a time … sort of like taking apart intricate crocheted lace. And thank you for the honokiol stuff, it was instructive …..

Honokiol inhibits at least one of the P450 enzymes that processes a truckload of medications, many of them in the benzo family (CYP3A4). An inhibitory effect means that they slow down the processing of anything that clears thru that pathway, and could hold it in your system for longer than is safe, potentiating its effects and raising the likelihood of interactions with other drugs, even those that clear thru other pathways, so it’s not something to be taken lightly, at least for me. I’ll have to dig into files (shudder) and see if I can find the chart showing which drugs clear thru which enzyme pathway in order to know if honokiol (or magnolia bark) is relatively safe for me. Let me know if you could use this info, too, otherwise it’ll get shunted to the “… next time I have a shiteload of awesome energy ….” pile, which is getting impressively large.
I did try sodium ascorbate before, and it did not make me acidic, but unfortunately did not help with sleep either (found an old thread I did on this). I don't know why, it's still vitamin C. And I think the ascorbic acid is making me pee more (dang!) but I am going back to sleep with it. So it's an ongoing lab experiment.
Yeah, it’s frustratingly mystifying :woot: how different forms of the same vitamin or substance can have wildly different effects, in this case, probably the sodium molecule, in buffering the action of the C, changes its god-knows-what into your-guess-is-as-good-as-mine. I wonder if a little potassium gluconate would diminish the acidifying effects without cutting thru the C effects that you need to help with sleep.

Thank you for the link to your previous thread … I always enjoy your posts, and learn something from all of them.:nerd:
Yeah, I think we're all due for a miracle! as if . . . I would love to hear about your experiment with New Zealand freeze-dried beef liver. I remember reading about people having good results with Nexavir but of course it's not available any more, I think. the New Zealand beef liver comes in a powder, you don't have to get it in capsule form, e.g.: https://www.iherb.com/pr/Nutricolog...VAsZkCh2dygwyEAQYBCABEgIY8_D_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds
I’m still in early stages of the beef liver, and am taking it very slowly: one cap a day for last week or so, and I’ll boldly boost it to 2 a day within the next couple of days, thereby inching my way up to the recommended 6 a day.
So far, I think I’m noticing a very mild boost in over-all energy and maybe even clarity, but I’ve been pretty symptomatic for the last day-and-a-half, so it’s hard to tell. It wasn't the beef liver, it was an ill-advised experiment that, needless to say, will not be repeated any time soon :meh:. Will report back with every step up if they produce any additional info, and will absolutely report back when I get a profile after reaching the 6 caps a day goal.

And thank you for the link to the Nutricolgy beef liver powder, sourced from Australia and New Zealand …. right now I’m OK with opening one of the 180 :woot: caps I got into some warm water (to whisk it into an emulsion), then adding about 4 times more Lakewood Super Veggie and chugging it down lickety-fast, but that’s going to get more problematic as the number of capsules, and therefore the intensity of the liverish flavor :vomit:, increases.

Stay on that upward path, you lucky so-and-so :cool:, and keep posting about it, and how you got there, to give us hope, eh :rolleyes:?
 

Mary

Moderator Resource
Messages
17,385
Location
Southern California
otherwise it’ll get shunted to the “… next time I have a shiteload of awesome energy ….” pile, which is getting impressively large.
You're funny! But I know what you're saying. Actually I do okay with magnolia bark. The only negative thing for me is that it stops working after 3 or 4 weeks. Now I'm wondering if the vitamin C will keep working or not, time will tell. I sort of think the vitamin C won't stop working - e.g., I've been taking B12 for years and years and folate and potassium for years, and they don't lose their effectiveness.
I wonder if a little potassium gluconate would diminish the acidifying effects without cutting thru the C effects that you need to help with sleep.
It doesn't - I have been taking potassium gluconate (around 1500 mg in divided doses, including middle of the night) since 2010, when I started taking folate. It hasn't affected acidity. However, I also have potassium bicarbonate, and that is helping with acidity. But I don't take it with the vitamin C, I just take it first thing in the morning and then maybe mid-morning, and mid-afternoon if necessary, away from food. I was taking sodium bicarbonate but it was raising my BP. And I've gotten more targeted in taking the vitamin C - I've stopped taking it during the day, and I now only take 2000 mg with dinner, 3000 mg before bed and 3000 mg more middle of the night. So I'm less acidic but taking the C this way is still helping with sleep. Also, being less acidic, it bothers my kidney less - it seems it's the acidity which made it hurt and when the symptoms of acidity go away, my kidney stops hurting.

It occurred to me that perhaps I didn't absorb the sodium ascorbate as well as ascorbic acid because it wasn't acidic enough - just a thought.

Thank you for the link to your previous thread … I always enjoy your posts, and learn something from all of them.:nerd:
You're welcome! :) I'm very glad you find them helpful! I sometimes feel like a mad scientist with all my self-experimentation. I have a sister I can tell all this too (other people would think me mad) I was talking to her the other day on the phone when my phone alarm went off. I started to laugh and then explained to her that it was time for my potassium bicarb, which I had to take away from food, and needed to take it because of the vitamin C which was helping me sleep, but then made me acidic and thus achey and tired, hence the potassium bicarb. She's seen me struggle with sleep for years. It's always something, as Emily Litella of SNL used to say! :sluggish:
So far, I think I’m noticing a very !boost in over-all energy and maybe even clarity, but I’ve been pretty symptomatic for the last day-and-a-half, so it’s hard to tell. It wasn't the beef liver, it was an ill-advised experiment that, needless to say, will not be repeated any time soon :meh:. Will report back with every step up if they produce any additional info, and will absolutely report back when I get a profile after reaching the 6 caps a day goal.
A mild boost sounds promising :thumbsup: Will keep my fingers crossed for you! Do keep me posted.

I'm experimenting with doubling my BCAAs. I've been at the same dose for 4 years (4000 mg a day), and finally decided to emulate ljimbo423 with a higher dose. I think it's giving me a bit more energy, but like you, too soon to tell, but will do a post about this when I know more.

I don't know if I'm on an upward path - but I'm on some sort of path, aren't we all? ;) (oftentimes getting lost in the underbrush and trying to scramble my way out through thorns and thickets! :nervous:)
 

YippeeKi YOW !!

Senior Member
Messages
16,047
Location
Second star to the right ...
I sort of think the vitamin C won't stop working - e.g., I've been taking B12 for years and years and folate and potassium for years, and they don't lose their effectiveness.
@Mary
I agree. I can’t explain the logic here, but somehow it just doesn’t compute that a basic and essential vitamin like C would somehow stop working, any more than your B12 and folate did. Tho admittedly, the mysterious ins and outs of both ME/CFS and all its lee’l frens' and the human body are baffling. I mean, if other supplements like turmeric/curcumin etc need to be cycled to avoid losing their effectiveness …. but then I think that things you take for a therapeutic effect that aren’t part of the basic building blocks, that are more medicinal in structure, function differently in the body. What’s the logic behind that belief? Who knows. But nonetheless, I don’t think it’ll stop working.
It occurred to me that perhaps I didn't absorb the sodium ascorbate as well as ascorbic acid because it wasn't acidic enough - just a thought.
Sounds logical ….. which is how I get led down the primrose whatever ….. have you thought of taking the C with a weak solution of potassium gluconate, say, 1/16th of a teaspoon, which would be approximately 270 mgs, or even 1/32nd (135 mg) …. enough maybe to cut the acidity slightly, not enough to kill it completely ….. I mix my potassium gluconate in a 6 ½ oz cup, starting with really warm/low level hot water, 3 dps of stevia, whisk, add more water either hot or room, depending on what I want in that moment. If you only drank half a cup, that would be even less potassium gluc…… who knows, maybe it’ll work ….
I sometimes feel like a mad scientist with all my self-experimentation. I have a sister I can tell all this too (other people would think me mad)
It’s really hard to find friends/relatives who are willing to suspend disbelief and actually listen to you, withholding judgment til they know more. Even my dearly beloved, who’s seen me in jerky, spastic muscle attacks, or hunched into a huddled knees clasped to chest, seated fetal position on the bed, shaking and sweating with a massive 19 hour panic attack, finds it hard to believe in the face of the breaks in the clouds where I’m close to normal … people are profoundly frightened by things that they logically, or unconsciously, know could happen to them too ….it’s why lepers were forced to carry a bell and ring it loudly when they were in town or were banished to die of starvation, why hunchbacks spread the ruor that rubbing their hum would bring good luck (probably the earliest defensive disinformation campaign), why witches were drowned, hung, or burned (OK, I’m really oversimplifying that one, but it’s the best I can do right now)…. for all our sophistication, education, internet availability, book larnin' the anachronistic fear of any possible threat still lives, burning brightly, buried under all the slick layers of culture and society ….

Yeah, Emily Latella had it down ….. it's always gonna be sumpn'
A mild boost sounds promising :thumbsup: Will keep my fingers crossed for you! Do keep me posted.

I'm experimenting with doubling my BCAAs. I've been at the same dose for 4 years (4000 mg a day), and finally decided to emulate ljimbo423 with a higher dose.
RE BEEF LIVER ..... Am still on one a day, so it’s hard to tell, but the ever-so-subtle changes seem to be holding. Will try to boost by one cap soon, but it’s so hard to risk another reaction with something I have high hopes for and need desperately ….. I’m pretty sure you know what I mean, I think we all go thru that reaction at some point, or several if we’re highly symptomatic and moderately unlucky …. will report back shortly.

How is boosting the BCAAs working so far? Not sure how much you boosted them, but knowing your savvy, I'm pretty sure you did it cautiously. I’m still giving serious thought (and some research time) to it …. it’s worked so well for ya’ll ….

Sorry for the rambling answers …. I’ve had a run of bad days and am just coming out of it ….
 

Mary

Moderator Resource
Messages
17,385
Location
Southern California
I think that things you take for a therapeutic effect that aren’t part of the basic building blocks, that are more medicinal in structure, function differently in the body. What’s the logic behind that belief? Who knows. But nonetheless, I don’t think it’ll stop working.
I hope so! Crossing my fingers . . . another good night last night . . . and it doesn't leave me drugged!

have you thought of taking the C with a weak solution of potassium gluconate
Are you maybe thinking of potassium bicarbonate here? I take 1500 mg. of potassium gluconate a day, 300 mg with each meal, and 300 mg. before bed and 300 more in the middle of the night, and this does not make me alkaline. I discovered my predilection for low potassium when I started taking methylfolate in 2010. The methylfolate initially boosted my energy quite a bit and then caused severe fatigue, which was my potassium tanking which I believe is related to refeeding syndrome. Member Freddd has done a lot of posts on this.

Additionally, you might know that persons with ME/CFS often have low intracellular potassium despite normal blood work - see https://forums.phoenixrising.me/ind...ded-in-methylation-treatmt.18670/#post-291422 and I'm just about positive I fall into that category. I had had symptoms of low potassium before I even started the methylfolate, only I never knew what was causing this weird unexplained awful fatigue which was different than PEM, and just assumed it was another weird awful ME/CFS symptom - when it was actually low potassium, despite normal blood work.

I am taking 1/4 tsp. potassium bicarbonate when I first get up in the morning on an empty stomach, and it's helping a lot with acidity. I sometimes take more later in the day if need be. 1/4 tsp. has 400 - 500 mg. potassium. Also, the amount of vitamin C I'm taking now is less than half I think of what I took when I was doing the lorazepam taper, so the acidity is much less than before, not nearly as debilitating, which is nice!

It’s really hard to find friends/relatives who are willing to suspend disbelief and actually listen to you, withholding judgment til they know more
people are profoundly frightened by things that they logically, or unconsciously, know could happen to them too
You're absolutely right! My sister had to see me sick for several years before she really got it that ME/CFS is real. But at least she did get it, for which I am very grateful. Having even just one person who believes you is incredibly validating. Though my ex-husband never got it until we'd been apart for some 13 years and he saw some of the new research and finally opened his eyes a little. I do agree many are frightened by this devastating illness. I have a chiropractor who does muscle testing who I see several times a year, but I think he always has a wall up, acts like I'm a normal healthy person with a few quirks. But one time I was trying to describe a crash for him and how I'm limited to 3 - 4 hours of light activity a day (with plenty of rest breaks), otherwise I end up in bed the next day, and very briefly, a look of horror crossed his face, and then was gone. That's the only time I've seen a normal human reaction to this illness from him.

the ever-so-subtle changes seem to be holding.
I hope this keeps up for you! Crossing my fingers (and everything else) for you :)

How is boosting the BCAAs working so far?
Well, I did double them, and unfortunately my sleep got noticeably worse, despite the vitamin C. I was careful to take them first thing in the morning, and then late morning but they still interfered with sleep. I did feel a little perkier, sort of revved up, but it was not worth it and I don't think was really any extra energy. But I am trying 5000 mg. now (two 2500 mg. doses), which is increasing my original dose of 4000 mg by 1000 mg., and this seems to be fine, so will stick with it. Too soon to tell if it will help PEM recovery more than 4000 mg. does. BCAAs have not prevented PEM for me (though I think they do with some people), but they have definitely cut my PEM recovery time by at least half. A friend says that medical marijuana (vaping it) has helped stave off PEM for her, so that is next on my list of Things To Try (after the holidays).
I’ve had a run of bad days and am just coming out of it ….
I'm sorry to hear this! I hope you do come out of it and stay for awhile at least :nerd:
 

YippeeKi YOW !!

Senior Member
Messages
16,047
Location
Second star to the right ...
@Wishful
Agreed. Our bodies are very complex, and since Vit C is essential to so many other systems and reaction chains within our bodies and is water soluble (so the body excretes what it can't use), it seems unlikely that Vit C would accumulate, or would interfere with anything else, or have an altering effect on other chemical reactions, at least as far as I can see.

But then, I have to wear my glasses to read these posts, so the " ...as far as I can see ..." part may not be 20/20.
 

YippeeKi YOW !!

Senior Member
Messages
16,047
Location
Second star to the right ...
Are you maybe thinking of potassium bicarbonate here?
Nope. There’s some generally minor side effects of bicarb that I was thinking of when I suggested the gluconate, which I’ve had really good experience with. Like you, I discovered a few years ago after the usual rounds of research that potassium seemed to help in diverse subtle ways and started supplementing it the same way you do: first thing in the morning, warm water suspension, empty stomach. I also add cinnamon which has been cited in a couple of studies as having beneficial effects on excitotoxicity, which from experience, I can vouch for. Subtle, but very little bit helps.

My thought was that if you took a hefty dose of Vit C with a warm water suspension of the gluconate, you might get the same or a similar anti-acidity effect, without losing any of the benefits of the C. But as you know, I’m a firm believer in “If it works, it works”, so please disregard.
Additionally, you might know that persons with ME/CFS often have low intracellular potassium despite normal blood work
Yup. See above, and thanks for the link to the thread!
I have a chiropractor who does muscle testing who I see several times a year, but I think he always has a wall up, acts like I'm a normal healthy person with a few quirks.
Yeah, I don’t know why those to whom we entrust our health are the first to deny, in multiple different ways, that there’s anything wrong with us. It’s a puzzlement o_O.

The only Dr who didn’t was my oncologist, but even with him, I had to ask constant questions that dug ever deeper into my staging, my treatment, my prognosis, like it wasn’t any of my business :mad:….
But one time I was trying to describe a crash for him and how I'm limited to 3 - 4 hours of light activity a day (with plenty of rest breaks), otherwise I end up in bed the next day, and very briefly, a look of horror crossed his face, and then was gone. That's the only time I've seen a normal human reaction to this illness from him.
Eliciting a human response from almost any member of the medical profession (even tho many MD’s would deny that chiropractic falls under that purview …. personally, I think that a good chiro is infinitely more valuable in terms of actual healing) is close to a miracle.
I hope this keeps up for you! Crossing my fingers (and everything else) for you :)
Thank you for that ..... and so far, so good …. (there’s an old shaggy dog joke that mama and I used to trade back and forth in times of stress that goes along with this, but I'll spare you cause you’re a stellar human being) …. just got up the courage to bump up to 3 caps (½ oz of beef liver) a day, so wont know how that works for a day or three, but so far, it’s still doing well and no side-effects …. maybe my faster than usual recovery after the book-box fiasco was attributable to whatever small amount of BCAA’s the beef liver provided ….
Well, I did double them, and unfortunately my sleep got noticeably worse,
Ooooppps and wowee …. too brave o_O!!!
BCAAs have not prevented PEM for me (though I think they do with some people), but they have definitely cut my PEM recovery time by at least half.
That in itself is no small thing. It’s like returning half or more of your functional waking time to you, to be used as you choose, within the obvious restraints imposed by this festival of fun :).
A friend says that medical marijuana (vaping it) has helped stave off PEM for her, so that is next on my list of Things To Try (after the holidays).
I tried a high quality hemp product which did really well for about 6 days in terms of dealing with the panic attacks and some of the fatigue, and then turned on me, growling and snarling, and I stopped it immediately. Am working up the courage t try it again, because the difference it produced was really impressive.
I'm sorry to hear this! I hope you do come out of it and stay for awhile at least :nerd:
Well, you know the drill doubtless even better than I do …. came out of it, lapsed back slightly ….. came out of that, another lapse ……. came out of that, dragged a large 2 ton box of books off the ottoman where Dearly Beloved had deposited them almost a year ago, much to the detriment of the ottoman (kept forgetting to ask Dearly Beloved, to do it, and knew that once I did there would be all the follow up nudges, reminders, notes, whining, begging, screaming, pleading, all of which leave me in a state of psycho-physical exhaustion) was fine ….. til about 30 hours later, when I had a moderate PEM crash …. I’ve come out of that, now awaiting the next chapter, hi-ho, such a whirligig of fun fun fun …..:confused:

But even as I bitch, I’m deeply aware that I’m soooooo much better than at any time since the start of this, and I’m deeply grateful. Although some of it started before this, this site has helped enormously in keeping my spirits up, and my intentions focused, and providing me with a lot of sites for research from the first-hand experience of other members, including you, and I thank you …..:):hug: