B12 question...what are you taking and advice?

[musicchick581]

There is enough info here about B12 to make your head spin and I read through as much as I can, but bottom line, can anyone tell me what you are taking and why?

I had a hard time with methylcobalmin at first but finally slowly increased to about 600 mcg. in liquid form. My multi has 50 mcg methyl and adenosylcobalmin mixed. Doc says that's plenty.

My B12 serum and folate serum were normal. I'm taking NAC, lithium orotate 5 mg, and Vitamin D3 5000 IU a day as well. (my serum D was a bit high but doc says stay on it)

I can't find adenosylcobalmin by itself and I know sublingual and liquid forms are best.

Some of my snps are:

BHMT 08 +/+
CBS 360 and 13637 +/-
COMT rs6269 +/- and COMTH62H +/- and COMTV158M +/-
and MAO A +/+ among other polymorphisms like MTHFR 1298 and 677 compound heterozygous
VDR bsm and VDR taq both +/-

Does anyone have similar snps as I do and anxiety/panic attack/digestion/gut bloating issues/food sensitivities/reflux/LPR symptoms as well?

What are you taking for B12 and any advice for me?

 

[PeterPositive]

There is enough info here about B12 to make your head spin and I read through as much as I can, but bottom line, can anyone tell me what you are taking and why?

I take it because I am an hypo-methylator and need lots of extra methyl donor, to keep homocysteine down and help the methylation cycle.

I too had problems with methyl-B12 initially causing anxiety, jittery feeling and such. With time I was able to go from 250mcg up to 2000mcg and I probably need more.

Adenosyl-B12 is available by itself. See here:
http://www.iherb.com/Source-Natural...c=0&lc=en-US&w=dibencozide&rc=40&sr=null&ic=2

http://www.iherb.com/Anabol-Natural...c=0&lc=en-US&w=dibencozide&rc=40&sr=null&ic=4

Some of my snps are:

BHMT 08 +/+
CBS 360 and 13637 +/-
COMT rs6269 +/- and COMTH62H +/- and COMTV158M +/-
and MAO A +/+ among other polymorphisms like MTHFR 1298 and 677 compound heterozygous
VDR bsm and VDR taq both +/-

Does anyone have similar snps as I do and anxiety/panic attack/digestion/gut bloating issues/food sensitivities/reflux/LPR symptoms as well?

Since you have the compound MTHFR snps you may have a slow methylation. Have you ever checked your homocysteine levels? It can give you a hint about this problem.

Also when you say that your serum B12 are "normal" what do you mean? Some docs will tell you that your B-12 is ok even with levels of 200-300, which is definitely not good.

In any case given your snps you may require methyl-folate for the MTHFR issues which in turn requires Methyl-B12 for doing it's job properly.

Currently I am taking this B12 product:
http://www.iherb.com/Enzymatic-Therapy-B12-Infusion-Energy-30-Chewable-Tablets/2119#p=1&oos=1&disc=0&lc=en-US&w=enzymatic therapy b12&rc=274&sr=null&ic=1

You will find it recommended here in many discussions. It seems to be more effective than other brands, possibly because the tablet dissolves more slowly than others, thus providing a better absorption via the cheek and tong tissues.

PS: COMT mutations may be involved in the "bad reactions" against some methy-donors such as Methyl-B12 and methylfolate. If you find that Methyl-B12 is causing too many symptoms you may want to switch to Hydroxy-B12 which should be easier to use.

 

[musicchick581]

My homocysteine is low at 6. A few years ago it was at 5 so it's only gone up one and my doctor is very happy with this.
B12 is within normal levels for serum b12 as per my lab results.
I was concerned that due to my other snps, I would need adenosyl and hydroxycobalmin, as Yasko's chart says, but how do we know if we are converting either? Methyl is the best because it doesn't require conversions. I certainly don't want to have too many methyls floating around causing problems.
I've had anxiety and panic attacks for years regardless of how much B12 I take in the form of methylcobalmin. PRobably due to my MAO ++.
Thank you for the links. I'm going to check them out.

 

[musicchick581]

Can anyone else help?

 

[helen1]

Many of us take methylB12 for methylation. The protocols for methylation all include methylfolate (and/or folinic acid as per Rich) and carnitine fumarate as well as the two B12s. So if you're trying to improve your methylation abilities, then you'd need to add methylfolate and carnitine fumarate. I

However, it's always a good idea to start low and go slow, adding one thing at a time in small amounts and titrating up carefully.

Most of the plans advise taking 'co-factors' before starting methylation plans. These include a good B complex (no folic acid, P5P not B6, etc), vit C, minerals especially magnesium etc.

I know it can be tough to read and absorb these threads, but there's a lot here on the topics of methylation and cofactors. Have you read PR member Caledonia's 17 ways methylation can go wrong (or something like that)? It's in her signature and a must read for anyone starting out.

 

[musicchick581]

When would you take folinic acid instead of methylfolate?
I was taking a multi with methyl/adenosyl cobalmin very low 50 mcg and methylfolate 400 mcg for years before taking MTHFR more seriously now that I have digestive issues and my anxiety and panic has not resolved in years. So my doc is paying more attention to it now and I am too, hence why I'm on this board. I just started taking an increased dose.
I'm taking methylfolate at 900 mcg a day but had effects on B12 methylcobalmin. I'm now at 550mcg methylcobalmin but not seeing improvements in my methylation cycle. Still having anxiety and panic attacks and now tiredness (maybe DAO histamine and sensitivity to pollen?) My allergy testing revealed no seasonal allergies but I have food sensitivities. Brewers Yeast is extremely high over the upper limit of "3" and several others are low "1's".
So I'm also wondering on another post if taking DAO will help with my +/+ DAO and -/- DAO.

I have read her methylation gone wrong page. It's very informative. I'm still confused though, whether to try hydroxy or adenoxylcobalmin or not. I mean, how do we know if we turn it into methyl? How do we know if we tolerate it? There are so many options I don't know what to do.

 

[helen1]

I know what you mean. I don't think there's an easy way to figure it out, except to read, discuss, spend money on tests if you have any and experiment very carefully on yourself. Or not if you don't want to risk it going wrong.

The multi you mention as having the two B12s in it though probably had very little if any effect on you. B12 is well known to be difficult to absorb, thus the use of sublingual and injectable forms. Very little of that oral form (your multi), will have been absorbed.

Even amongst sublinguals and injectables, there are significant differences in how absorbable they are. Currently it appears that for methylcobalamin, brand names Enzymatic Therapy and Country Life are the top two most absorbable.

For injectables, if they're exposed to light for more than a few seconds, they won't work either.

This is Rich Vank's methylation protocol with folinic acid:

http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...ethylation-protocol-revised-as-of-today.9447/

And this is the one Freddd developed, without folinic acid:
http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...b12-protocol-basics.10138/page-13#post-451441

 

[musicchick581]

@helen1 thank you! I'm currently on methylcobalmin liquid drops that my doctor told me to get. Are those more absorbable? I had brain fog and weird issues in my head when I started it so I had to increase slowly. I hope it's ok then that I was on the multi first with the methylfolate. I know there is discrepancy whether you should start B12 or folate first.

Also, I don't have ME/CFS.

 

[musicchick581]

Is it safe to experiment with hydroxycobalmin? I'm still having major anxiety lately and breathing in issues (probably panic attacks) for no reason.

 

[helen1]

@musicchick581 If it were me, I'd try the hydroxoB12 as some of us can't handle a lot of methyl donors as in methylB12. Have you had your genes done by 23andme or Yasko? That would give you info on whether the methyl donors are likely to cause you problems or not. Anxiety is one of the symptoms of not handling methyls well.

 

[PeterPositive]

@musicchick581 If it were me, I'd try the hydroxoB12 as some of us can't handle a lot of methyl donors as in methylB12. Have you had your genes done by 23andme or Yasko? That would give you info on whether the methyl donors are likely to cause you problems or not. Anxiety is one of the symptoms of not handling methyls well.

Here's a question:
suppose someone can't handle 1mg Methyl-B12 so he/she chooses to go with hydroxy-B12 and slowly build up the dose up to say 4-5mg of that.

I wonder is he/she wouldn't hit the same wall when the body has turned the hydroxy-B12 to a certain amount of Methyl-B12 and Adenosyl-B12. Supposing the amount of converted Methyl-B12 reaches the 1mg threshold (or more) wouldn't it generate the same symptoms? E.g. anxiety? etc...

In other words is there a difference in tolerance between 1mg of Methyl-B12 obtained from a tablet vs the same amount converted from Hydroxy-B12?

Also, Methyl-B12 already comes with those helpful CH3 (methyl) groups. Where does the body gets them in order to convert Hydroxy-B12 to Methyl-B12? Isn't it "stealing" them from some other methyl donor already present in the body? Such as SAMe or folate?

Thanks

 

[musicchick581]

@helen1 , yes, I had them done. That's what I posted in the original message. I'm kind of nervous to take hydroxyB12. I've been off the methyls and my anxiety is down quite a bit for the first time in forever. Has anyone on here had success with it? There is still methylB12 and folate in my multi but folate is 400 mcg and B12 is 50 mcg so I doubt I'm absorbing the B12.

@PeterPositive , that's a good question! Hopefully someone can answer.

 

[helen1]

Hi @musicchick581 & @PeterPositive. Just found this by Rich Vank that suggests why hydroxoB12 may not work for some people:

Marsden recently called my attention to a recent paper from Prof. Richard Deth's group (abstract below) that provides evidence from a rat experiment that major glutathione depletion blocks the conversion of hydroxocobalamin to methylcobalamin.

One of the things this has brought home to me is that in cases in which glutathione or SAMe are extremely low, it will be difficult to get the methylation cycle going using hydroxocobalamin as the form of B12. This is the form included in the simplified protocol I have suggested, and it was found to be helpful for more than two-thirds of the people in our clinical study, but this may explain why some of the people did not receive benefit from this protocol.
Note that the protocol recommended by Freddd uses methylcobalamin as one of the forms of B12. Methylcobalamin is also used by Dr. Amy Yasko in some cases, depending on genomic polymorphisms.

Yasko has also said that she initially favours hydroxo for the adults on her program because she says they have higher body burdens of toxins, and a lower threshold for detox and she says hydroxy is gentler in this regard.
She says methylB12 is going to mobilise a lot more stuff.

I know this doesn't answer your excellent questions Peter but hopefully this adds something to the discussion .

 

[musicchick581]

Wow, thank you! I'm not on anything anymore except a multi vitamin, lithium orotate and coenzyme q10. I'm detoxing with Fiji water (silica). Hopefully I'm doing the right thing.