Zhou et al: Lack of xenotropic MLV-related virus and/or MLV detection in blood donors

[Bob]

Wow, we do have different definitions of conspiracy. Your above example, is about crooks who stole money. It has nothing to do with ME and probably would have happened if the person(s), can't remember name(s), had been in a similar situation. This type of things happen with institutions.

I guess it's helpful to understand what we each mean by the word 'conspiracy' before discussing conspiracies!

I disagree with your assertion that the misappropriation of funds had nothing to do with ME.
It is precisely because ME was not taken seriously, within the CDC, that they were able to divert funds from ME research.
You say that it was just 'crooks' who stole money. But that's over-simplistic. There was an internal conspiracy at the CDC, by employees, to misappropriate funds, which means, by definition that there was a 'conspiracy'.

It seems with CFS/ME that the wide-scale corruption is allowed to happen because of widespread ignorance about the nature of the disease, which allows a disproportionately large amount of influence to rest in the hands of a small number of self-appointed-experts who corrupt the field.

This is an opinion. Do you have a concrete example? I go by analyzing the science. I read the literature, know how to read and interpret journal articles. This is my training. I have always been someone who analyzes situations, questions authority and looks at all sides of an issue before coming to a conclusion and not the other way around.

I admire your own approach to science, if it is how you describe it, but none of my comments were directed at you.
I was referring to the general ignorance about ME in the medical and scientific communities.

I'm amazed that you asked me for an example barb. I really am. There are a million examples.
We don't get taken seriously by the medical profession; The definitions are weak and the CDC & UK psychiatrists have persistently watered them down; Treatments are ineffective and inappropriate; Many doctors & the media think it's all in the mind; The authorities don't seem to realise that ME has unique and distinct symptoms (symptoms which are different from those in chronic fatigue); etc. etc. etc. etc. etc.

I can indeed give you concrete examples of the corruption of the science that is allowed to happen because of the influence of the psychiatric lobby.
For one, just look at the reporting of the PACE Trial: "30 to 40% recovery" was reported, as opposed to the actual results in which no "recovery" was reported at all, and CBT did not improve average physical disability at all.
Secondly, look at the over-reliance on inappropriate and ineffective psychological therapies (CBT and GET) for treatment of ME in the UK.
I could go on forever!

IMHO, The world is much more complicated than how you are explaining it. The world is not black and white. It's shades of gray.

I was describing a very complex world of indifference, apathy, ignorance, corruption, influence and disenfranchisement.
I don't deny that there are also very many good honest doctors and researchers out there, but like I said earlier, there is a lot of apathy and ignorance in relation to ME, and the disproportionate power and influence of a few individuals leads to corruption and a corrupted field of medicine, causing disenfranchisement for the many.

You would find it very hard to find many ME patients who say they have been well catered for in the health services.
Personally, I've experienced nothing but absolute neglect. In my opinion, this is a symptom of everything that i've described.

 

[alex3619]

To me a conspiracy is a covert collusion to violate standards, rules or regulations, regardless of the motive (its not always about money). The CDC, as discussed in Osler's Web, were given money by the US congress specifically for CFS research. They spent most of it on Hunta virus and tried to cover it up. Congress was not pleased when they eventually found out, a special investigator was appointed, and people lost their jobs. It was definitely a conspiracy, though not illegal. Bye, Alex

 

[Bob]

To me a conspiracy is a covert collusion to violate standards, rules or regulations, regardless of the motive (its not always about money).

Yes, and it can also be an unconscious conspiracy. In other words, the people involved might not realise that they are acting corruptly, or have plotted a conspiracy.
For example, look at what's happening to journalists at Murdoch's paper, The Sun. I think that some of the journalists were genuinely surprised that they've been arrested, because they thought that they were carrying out legitimate and genuine journalism. (Careful what I say about that because no one has been found guilty of anything.)

 

[alex3619]

Hi Bob, what you are describing is a culture where what is normally considered disreputable becomes accepted practice. When its a cultural norm people do not consider it conspiratorial nor criminal or whatever, its business as usual. Its a problem with badly managed cultures in business and government. Bye, Alex

 

[barbc56]

Hi Bob, what you are describing is a culture where what is normally considered disreputable becomes accepted practice. When its a cultural norm people do not consider it conspiratorial nor criminal or whatever, its business as usual. Its a problem with badly managed cultures in business and government. Bye, Alex

I don't consider the treatment we have received as business as usual. Yeah, the way we have been treated is horrific, we are treated unfairly, but I see it more as stupidity, ignorance and not a conspiracy. Doctors are just now starting to get the fact that we don't have a psychological illness.

Do we think it's a conspiracy that antibiotics weren't developed before the science had this information.

As far as Weasle and company, it's the way they have been trained and that mindset needs to be changed. Not a conspiracy but a mindset.

As far as the CDC debacle, could it have been easier to steal grant money for a smaller funded program in the CDC, but were they intentionally doing this because they didn't believe me/cfs exists?
.
So I guess we are playing semantics here.

You're suggesting that people who do not believe in xmrv are ignorant about conspiracies. Not true. Just doesn't apply for my definition of conspiracy.

I would have to disagree that a conspiracy can be unconscious. Wouldn't that be an oxymoron?

Okay, I've said my piece, so no further comments needed from me. We can agree to disagree.

Barb C. :>)

 

[Bob]

I don't consider the treatment we have received as business as usual. Yeah, the way we have been treated is horrific, we are treated unfairly, but I see it more as stupidity, ignorance and not a conspiracy. Doctors are just now starting to get the fact that we don't have a psychological illness.

But why do doctors think it's a psychological illness? This didn't happen by chance. It happened because of a failure by the medical establishment to distribute accurate information, partly because of the influence of the powerful psychiatric lobby.

Do we think it's a conspiracy that antibiotics weren't developed before the science had this information.

That's not a useful comparison. ME has been actively promoted as a psychological condition. It's not just a case of passive ignorance.

As far as Weasle and company, it's the way they have been trained and that mindset needs to be changed. Not a conspiracy but a mindset.

That's a guess. You might be right.

As far as the CDC debacle, could it have been easier to steal grant money for a smaller funded program in the CDC, but were they intentionally doing this because they didn't believe me/cfs exists?

There are reports that people within the CDC did not believe that CFS was a real illness, and it was not taken seriously.
I can't remember where I've read this, but I've come across it a number of times.
Osler's Web is possibly a very good source of info about this.
I've read that there was a mindset within the CDC that CFS should not be taken seriously by anyone within the department, because they considered that ME was not a real disease. They scoffed at it being taken seriously. You only have to look at the ridiculous research carried out by Reeves to get some sort of idea about this.

So I guess we are playing semantics here.

Partly we are, but I did want to point out that misinformation has been actively promoted about CFS/ME over the years. It's not a passive process that has put us in the position where we are fighting for biomedical research investment and proper biomedical treatments. There are powerful and influential groups involved. Wessely, for example, has been (and probably still is) a government advisor for ME. Reeves was notorious for his output from the CDC.

You're suggesting that people who do not believe in xmrv are ignorant about conspiracies. Not true. Just doesn't apply for my definition of conspiracy.

I'm just pointing out that the field of ME is not immune to corruption.
I'm not interested in whether the term 'conspiracy' is appropriate, or not, but what I wanted to point out is that groups of people have actively worked to corrupt the field of ME. This is evidence from the psychiatric lobby in the UK, and the past actions of the CDC in the USA.

If you are not aware of the past actions of the CDC in relation to the ME outbreaks, and the 1984 fukuda definition, then may I suggest that you make yourself familiar with some of Hillary Johnson's work, by looking at either some of her old blog posts, or her book Oslers Web?

There is also the issue of CFS research being blocked on both sides of the atlantic. We know that CFS researchers have trouble getting grants, and in the UK it has been said that funding has been blocked by psychologists/psychiatrists sitting on grant reviewing bodies.

I would have to disagree that a conspiracy can be unconscious. Wouldn't that be an oxymoron?

Well, the term 'conspiracy' isn't important to me. I think we can agree on the word 'corruption'.
By 'unconscious', I just meant that sometimes people collude together and convince themselves that they are doing the right thing (either morally or legally), when in fact they are acting corruptly. In this case, can it be called a 'conspiracy'? It's a bit of a grey area, but it's not important.

Okay, I've said my piece, so no further comments needed from me. We can agree to disagree.

You keep saying that Barb, and then you keep responding to me!

I'm happy to agree to disagree, but I would request that you look at some of Hillary Johnson's work to familiarise yourself with some of the history of ME, and why I am of the opinion that there was corruption within the CDC.

I've just touched the surface here really... There's a long and messy history of ignorance, corruption, collusion and vested interests in relation to ME...