Zero Evidence That Depression Is Caused by Low Serotonin Levels.....

[LINE]

Thanks. I've tried magnesium (glycinate, malate, threonate, etc). I've done a methyl B complex that is a bit helpful for energy, but doesn't make me feel more rested. Also tried a separate B6 P5P form, but wasn't sure if that did anything. My methyl B complex also has a small amount of B6 P5P and that seems like enough.

I recently bought the GABA Calm and tried it, but it didn't seem to do anything. Wasn't sure if I needed something else with it, but took it when I was having a bad day and just tasted like a mint.

I definitely wonder about toxins. I've tried various binders and can never tell if I'm making any progress or that's the issue. Chlorella, spirulina, cholestyramine, charcoal, clay, etc. I think charcoal and chlorella are the ones I tolerate the best and seem to do some good, but can't tell if it's doing anything beyond my GI tract. Although a lot of my crashes start with GI symptoms, so I think it's all connected.

Those are good binders and they help me out quite a bit.

I would suspect the gut as being some of the root of the problem. It has 70% of the immune system there and if the gut is disturbed then you get all kinds of problems. Also, keep in mind that the gut is considered the second brain, there are many studies of the neurological impact from the gut.

A good place to start is paying attention to foods and food additives. Microbes use different substances to grow, and those substances vary from microbe to microbe. Example, I have read that the amino acid cysteine can feed some bacteria, this may not be true of all microbes. Another patient has problems with cooked onions, while another has problems with rice. I have problems with fresh dairy (not aged dairy) due to the lactose content.

Most processed foods cause me problems due to the chemicals. The immune system is triggered with these chemicals and when you get immune activation, you get all kinds of bad things happening in the body including neurological.

The second thing I would consider is that you have unwanted microbes in the gut and with this, you get immune activation. There are a number of microbes that could be inhabiting there. Identification is helpful for treatment ideas but there can be some tricks with identification. I have an outside forum devoted to gut microbes, let me know if you want more information.

 

[Rufous McKinney]

I have an outside forum devoted to gut microbes, let me know if you want more information.

I recently decided to try the Mood Probiotics ...suggested in another thread. Not sure why I acted that day. Ordered. I am liking them, mostly.

I don't take alot of probiotics, generally, and have IBS-d type issues. Which I manage wiht chinese herbs but decided not to take them for a while.

one cup of herbs typically is all I need to produce a reasonably improved digestive event.

What blows my mind is how can taking ONE probiotic entirely alter the digestive event? Its like a different person and different body entirely. And the herb route and this probiotic route seem to lead to similar reactions.

I think about this and just cannot manage to understand what is going on. Its an interaction between the liver...the neurotransmitters, energetic wind, the barrier/leaking..and these organisms.

 

[hapl808]

I would suspect the gut as being some of the root of the problem. It has 70% of the immune system there and if the gut is disturbed then you get all kinds of problems. Also, keep in mind that the gut is considered the second brain, there are many studies of the neurological impact from the gut.

A good place to start is paying attention to foods and food additives. Microbes use different substances to grow, and those substances vary from microbe to microbe. Example, I have read that the amino acid cysteine can feed some bacteria, this may not be true of all microbes. Another patient has problems with cooked onions, while another has problems with rice. I have problems with fresh dairy (not aged dairy) due to the lactose content.

Most processed foods cause me problems due to the chemicals. The immune system is triggered with these chemicals and when you get immune activation, you get all kinds of bad things happening in the body including neurological.

The second thing I would consider is that you have unwanted microbes in the gut and with this, you get immune activation. There are a number of microbes that could be inhabiting there. Identification is helpful for treatment ideas but there can be some tricks with identification. I have an outside forum devoted to gut microbes, let me know if you want more information.

Sure, a link to the forum would be appreciated.

I totally agree that it seems gut related, as some LPR-style acid reflux often precedes other symptoms.

Unfortunately I can't figure out how to change that. Things I've tried:

Antibiotics (doxy, zithro, xifaxan, etc)
Probiotics
Anti-Parasitics
Kefir
Homemade Kimchi
Allicin
Andrographis
D-Limonene
Artemesinin
Binders
Neem
High Fiber Diet
Low Fiber Diet
Vegan
Vegetarian
Keto
Carnivore

You get the idea. I doubt I've had much food additives in years. I don't eat any prepared foods, I don't eat leftovers, I mostly eat organic fresh foods, etc. My diet right now is mostly organic chicken, a few vegetables, olive oil, steel cut oats, the occasional apple, etc. But I've tried varying diets, and other than slightly changed digestion, I can't say there were any huge differences in my condition.

Some things are obvious. I don't do well with lots of sugar, but I don't really eat that way. Anything with MSG has destroyed me for years. A couple times back when I was still moderate and ate out occasionally, something with MSG would put me in bed for days.

But it's frustrating, because so many suggestions are things I've been doing for years. There's always the 'processed foods' thing, but I can't remember the last time I ate a processed food. Maybe three years ago I had an Amy's frozen meal? I've tried low glutamate diets, supplementing various amino acids or trying to avoid them, etc.

Just exhausting. Most of my GI symptoms are directly related to how much physical or mental exertion I attempt.

 

[LINE]

I recently decided to try the Mood Probiotics ...suggested in another thread. Not sure why I acted that day. Ordered. I am liking them, mostly.

I don't take alot of probiotics, generally, and have IBS-d type issues. Which I manage wiht chinese herbs but decided not to take them for a while.

one cup of herbs typically is all I need to produce a reasonably improved digestive event.

What blows my mind is how can taking ONE probiotic entirely alter the digestive event? Its like a different person and different body entirely. And the herb route and this probiotic route seem to lead to similar reactions.

I think about this and just cannot manage to understand what is going on. Its an interaction between the liver...the neurotransmitters, energetic wind, the barrier/leaking..and these organisms.

There is a misconception about probiotics.

1/ How those particular strains will react in the gut. In other words, those strains may benefit (popular idea) or secondly, they may cause problems.

2/ Not all probiotics are the same. They contain different strains that may have adverse reactions.

3/ They may contribute to SIBO (Small Intestinal Bacterial Overgrowth). SIBO is just too microbes in the gut which the immune system detects and sends out immune cells to control the overgrowth. We all know that immune activation is never a good thing.

4/ Some probiotic strains can reduce unwanted microbes, but this is not always true. In other words, there are microbes that would laugh at the probiotics (thinking of pseudomonas etc.). These microbes would be best neutralized with antibiotic compounds.

So, it is a misconception that probiotics will fix the gut, don't get me wrong, they could help but not always. When taking any substance, you have to be observant and critical. Obviously, we take things with the hope that it will fix the problems but with any theory, we can be wrong.

Using prebiotics seems to be a better choice for me. Vegetable fibers add a substrate for the good microbes to grow, they also help manufacture butyrate which helps repair the gut lining. Apple cider vinegar is a fermented food that could help but not be the right choice. Of course, there are many other examples.

All my problems (CFS) started with a microbe invasion in my gut. As I have addressed this issue, I have improved.

 

[LINE]

Sure, a link to the forum would be appreciated.

I totally agree that it seems gut related, as some LPR-style acid reflux often precedes other symptoms.

Unfortunately I can't figure out how to change that. Things I've tried:

Antibiotics (doxy, zithro, xifaxan, etc)
Probiotics
Anti-Parasitics
Kefir
Homemade Kimchi
Allicin
Andrographis
D-Limonene
Artemesinin
Binders
Neem
High Fiber Diet
Low Fiber Diet
Vegan
Vegetarian
Keto
Carnivore

You get the idea. I doubt I've had much food additives in years. I don't eat any prepared foods, I don't eat leftovers, I mostly eat organic fresh foods, etc. My diet right now is mostly organic chicken, a few vegetables, olive oil, steel cut oats, the occasional apple, etc. But I've tried varying diets, and other than slightly changed digestion, I can't say there were any huge differences in my condition.

Some things are obvious. I don't do well with lots of sugar, but I don't really eat that way. Anything with MSG has destroyed me for years. A couple times back when I was still moderate and ate out occasionally, something with MSG would put me in bed for days.

But it's frustrating, because so many suggestions are things I've been doing for years. There's always the 'processed foods' thing, but I can't remember the last time I ate a processed food. Maybe three years ago I had an Amy's frozen meal? I've tried low glutamate diets, supplementing various amino acids or trying to avoid them, etc.

Just exhausting. Most of my GI symptoms are directly related to how much physical or mental exertion I attempt.

Good information. Sounds like you did your homework, so good job on that!

Have you done any testing for gut microbes? Would be looking for bacteria, protozoa parasites, other parasites (nematodes etc.) and yeast/fungal testing. Keep in mind that testing is very hit or miss and may require some specialization.

Have you done any work on biofilms?

Here is my forum, this link is on biofilm eradication
Lactoferrin // Xylitol Protocol (Simplified) - PPTU Forum (tapatalk.com)

The information is fairly comprehensive and not super organized, so if you get lost or have other questions, just let me know here at PR.

 

[Rufous McKinney]

There is a misconception about probiotics.

that is why I reported that generally, I do not take probiotics.

I chose to try these due to HPA axis experiment.

 

[Rufous McKinney]

Have you done any work on biofilms?

my biofilm theory is that proteolytic enzymes can help someting about all that.

I experience dramatic effects in the lung department.

I'm interesting in reading the post, thanks for including.

 

[YippeeKi YOW !!]

There is a misconception about probiotics.

There's a lot more than one. I've written about this extensively in other threads and dont have the brain power today to do the long version (I can almost hear the sighs of relief), so here's what I can muster...

• You're right. There's no guarantee that XYZ bifido whatsis and their many friends will do any good. There's many strains of bifido bactrium, lacto-bacilli, etc and while one particular strain (they're usually accompanied by a series of letters followed by numbers, or by the creators name) may be great, another strain of the same bacteria could hit your gut like an invading army, roil the natives, and leave you gasping for air ...
• And in spite of what the label says, usually something like "2 billion CFU's ... count 'em, 2 Billion !!!!" the probiotic you take is NOT colony forming, and has to be refurbished, sometimes every day ....
• The great jumble of "15 Different Probiotic Strains !!!!" or 20 or whatever, is not necessarily a good thing. Probiotics are one of those things where less is often more, in terms of both effectiveness and lessened possibility of competing strains and effects. Most companies produce a sort of kitchen sink mixture in the hopes that of the 20 cultures they've jammed into that little pill, at least 2 or 3 might have a positive effect and keep you coming back and buying more ...
• The gut is also called the enteric nervous system, or the second brain, and is in constant communication with the brain itself, via the vagus nerve among other pathways. Roiling the gut will roil the brain and the CNS, and is not to be taken lightly .... do some home work about various strains and their uses before handing over your hard-earned cash ....
• But there is one incontrovertible standard with which no one can argue .... if it's helping you, it's helping you, and everything else is just footnotes. In @Rufous McKinney 's case, the probiotic she's trialing seems to be helping, may we all be so lucky ...

 

[hapl808]

Have you done any testing for gut microbes? Would be looking for bacteria, protozoa parasites, other parasites (nematodes etc.) and yeast/fungal testing. Keep in mind that testing is very hit or miss and may require some specialization.

Have you done any work on biofilms?

Only did some general SIBO stuff years ago, plus a few relatively careful parasite tests since this all started after getting sick in SE Asia. I've considered doing some of the bacteria tests, but honestly it sounds exhausting when just using the bathroom on my own is a bit of a challenge and all the tests I did in the past were worthless. Fancy NGS tests of serum and saliva, parasite tests, SIBO breath testing, and so forth.

Biofilms seems like an interesting area. I've take nattokinase, serrapeptase, lactoferrin, proteolytic enzymes, etc. All of them seem 'somewhat' helpful, but hard to tell what they're doing. Natto-Serra helps with general circulatory issues as well - I usually take one capsule per day. Lactoferrin seems slightly helpful overall, but I don't 'react' to it strongly as you mention in that link. Quite well tolerated, and I often also take it any time I think I might be exposed to someone with Covid (which is extremely rare since I'm housebound at best).

D-limonene also seems to help a bit. The problem is that everything I take helps when I don't exert at all, but as soon as I spend an hour working on the computer, then it's just mitigation. Nothing consistently removes the PEM hangover for me. I track every supplement I take and try to keep my diet consistent to remove variables.

 

[Rufous McKinney]

the probiotic you take is NOT colony forming, and has to be refurbished, sometimes every day ....

this is a key aspect of all of it. I suspect maybe something biofilm related, is preventing new good stuff from persisting.

In terrestrial ecology, there are niches and the niche typically has somebody or another occupying the spot already.

Now we want to introduce something new or better to a place which is already fully occupied and maybe it is occupied by some critters who dont' belong.

So the newborn infant has to establish this gut and I know something never went quite right there in my case.

A pill now and then isn't likely to address such things but still we: play around .

 

[Rufous McKinney]

. I've take nattokinase, serrapeptase,

thats what I mostly take, but I take it infrequently due to detox issues and want to go really really slow on all that to avoid Bubble Brain and too much metal dumping.

despite alot of effort, two metal crowns are still in my mouth and I can't really get them removed until next year as my insurance maxed out.

 

[LINE]

Only did some general SIBO stuff years ago, plus a few relatively careful parasite tests since this all started after getting sick in SE Asia. I've considered doing some of the bacteria tests, but honestly it sounds exhausting when just using the bathroom on my own is a bit of a challenge and all the tests I did in the past were worthless. Fancy NGS tests of serum and saliva, parasite tests, SIBO breath testing, and so forth.

Biofilms seems like an interesting area. I've take nattokinase, serrapeptase, lactoferrin, proteolytic enzymes, etc. All of them seem 'somewhat' helpful, but hard to tell what they're doing. Natto-Serra helps with general circulatory issues as well - I usually take one capsule per day. Lactoferrin seems slightly helpful overall, but I don't 'react' to it strongly as you mention in that link. Quite well tolerated, and I often also take it any time I think I might be exposed to someone with Covid (which is extremely rare since I'm housebound at best).

D-limonene also seems to help a bit. The problem is that everything I take helps when I don't exert at all, but as soon as I spend an hour working on the computer, then it's just mitigation. Nothing consistently removes the PEM hangover for me. I track every supplement I take and try to keep my diet consistent to remove variables.

Based on your experiments, then I would rule out biofilms as a major problem which leaves the idea of resistance or finding the right combination of antibiotics as the likely answer.

Considering the SE Asia comment, I would think that protozoa parasites might be the area to look, e. Histolytica* is somewhat prevalent in SE Asia but there could be other protozoa species involved. Not sure if giardia or cryptosporidium would be in that region but there are many protozoa species that can be problematic.

With many people, they use 'cocktails' or combinations of antibiotics (abx) or natural antibiotics which I have used. Cocktails seem more effective than single use abx.

One thought process that has helped me is antibiotic sensitivity, this a term used in microbiology to define how well an abx works against said pathogen. In other words, just because you use an abx does not mean that the substance is effective against that pathogen. It could be, but there is no proof unless it helps. This means that every microbe is different and responds differently. This is one reason why cocktails seem more effective.

The other possibility is resistance. You can spot resistance pretty easily, that is if you use abx and you see improvement within a 7-day window (give or take 7 days) then you know you are on the right protocol. If you see a reversal after those 7 days, then suspect resistance. This happened to me a few times. This means the microbe has the ability to sniff out the chemical structure that eradicated them. It memorizes that chemical and holds that in its memory bank. This means that the next time you introduce the chemical, that the microbe will use a pump system to eradicate that chemical from its cell to prevent die off.

That is called an efflux pump, sounds like science fiction. Not all microbes have the ability to do this btw. But not to fear since there are a number of natural substances that can bind the efflux pump. I can provide more details if you like.

*Dr. Kevin Cahill in NYC is one of few treating doctors for parasites. I think he is still practicing and last I heard, the total charge is around $500.

e. histolytica is generally transmitted via water or aquaculture.

 

[Zahr82]

For one thing, maclobemide's monoamine oxidase inhibition is reversible, and it's inhibitory effect is primarily selective for MAOA. It's got a short half-life, and it increases brain concentrations of noradrenaline and serotonin. It's also much better tolerated than the older MAOIs, and the incidence of anticholinergic side effects is low. It's generally seen to be a safer alternative to the older MAOIs whose effect is more permanent, and whose side effects more pronounced, including to everyday foods, condiments, alcohol (especially fortified wines like brandy and sherries), aged cheeses, you name it.

Yes, true. Although without

On what do you base the statement that they're " .... far weaker than the others ...."?

Maclobemide has far fewer side effects, is both selective and reversible, requires no dietary restrictions (the old MAOIs came with long, daunting lists of foods and substances that, if you ingested them while taking one of the MAOIs, could send you to the ER or the morgue), has an infinitely lower profile of hypertensive crises, and have been shown to be as effective as tricyclics and far better tolerated, and are comparable to the SSRIs in efficacy and patient toleration.

Which isn't to say that they're a good idea, they're just not as bad as other options.

They do have a shorter half-life, which is part of their benefit, and any shortfall in treatment expectations can be remedied by titrating the dose up until it achieves the desired effect.

Glad that you found something that works for you. It's a long dark alley with constant disappointments and reversals in effectiveness, so that's no small accomplishment ....

No, you are right. If it worked for me, id be on maclobamide. Its less toxic, low side effect profile too. But its not a fully irreversible MAOI. If it works for you, stay on it. A combo of maclobamide and selegiline is brilliant apparently.
Yeah man. I need to stay on parnate for the time being

, its truly getting me through my days

 

[YippeeKi YOW !!]

I suspect maybe something biofilm related, is preventing new good stuff from persisting.

No oral probiotic is going to successfully colonize our already established, commensal microbiome, but the right one or three can really help, And with persistent dosing, it can possibly chase out a lot of the non-beneficial ones that just hang around stealing hubcaps and sliming the sidewalk .....

A pill now and then isn't likely to address such things but still we: play around .

It may not totally address 'em, but the right ones can really help, taken on a daily or every-other-day basis ... and really, all we have at our disposal for help and improvement is the constant of ' ....playing around ...' ....

 

[YippeeKi YOW !!]

I need to stay on parnate for the time being, its truly getting me through my days

That's really all we ever have, usually .... we're our own lab rats and petri dishes ..... good luck, and rock on !!!

 

[keenly]

I know for me using L trytophan, 5HTP and sominex over 2 years has caused really bad depression due to the neurotransmitters they lower.

 

[YippeeKi YOW !!]

I know for me using L trytophan, 5HTP and sominex over 2 years has caused really bad depression due to the neurotransmitters they lower.

That's quite a cocktail you're taking, but I understand why. Personally, I'd drink unicorn urine if there was so much as one study from the Univ of Transylvania showing that it improved both sleep latency and duration ....

But none of those DECREASE neurotransmitters, and in fact, actually improve their function, in the case of diphenhydramine (the active ingredient in Sominex), function like a weaker SSRI ....

L-trypyophan has both excitatory and inhibitory effects and has been shown to markedly increase epinephrine and decrease norepinephrine. It also may decrease dopamine. There's some evidence that tryptophan, which increases brain serotonin in humans, is an effective antidepressant in mild-to-moderate depression.

5-HTP may synthesize serotonin faster and more effectively than L-tryptophan, which makes it a good option if you're looking to boost mood.

Diphenhydramine blocks the effects of histamine and enters the brain in large quantities, which is how it makes you drowsy. It also inhibits the reuptake of serotonin. Since SSRIs like fluoxetine are stronger analogs of diphenhydramine, in a sense, you WERE taking an SSRI, if a weaker one.

Diphenhydramine also blocks the effects of acetylcholine. Acetylcholine is a chemical messenger / neurotransmitter, and has a critical role in the central and peripheral nervous system, generally for muscle control, autonomic body functions, and in learning, memory, and attention. In those last three, it functions in similar ways to glutamate.

I dont think it's guaranteed that any of the above caused your depression, but who knows.

At least you know that fluoxetine (Prozac) and you probably wouldn't be a good fit .....

 

[keenly]

That's quite a cocktail you're taking, but I understand why. Personally, I'd drink unicorn urine if there was so much as one study from the Univ of Transylvania showing that it improved both sleep latency and duration ....

But none of those DECREASE neurotransmitters, and in fact, actually improve their function, in the case of diphenhydramine (the active ingredient in Sominex), function like a weaker SSRI ....

L-trypyophan has both excitatory and inhibitory effects and has been shown to markedly increase epinephrine and decrease norepinephrine. It also may decrease dopamine. There's some evidence that tryptophan, which increases brain serotonin in humans, is an effective antidepressant in mild-to-moderate depression.

5-HTP may synthesize serotonin faster and more effectively than L-tryptophan, which makes it a good option if you're looking to boost mood.

Diphenhydramine blocks the effects of histamine and enters the brain in large quantities, which is how it makes you drowsy. It also inhibits the reuptake of serotonin. Since SSRIs like fluoxetine are stronger analogs of diphenhydramine, in a sense, you WERE taking an SSRI, if a weaker one.

Diphenhydramine also blocks the effects of acetylcholine. Acetylcholine is a chemical messenger / neurotransmitter, and has a critical role in the central and peripheral nervous system, generally for muscle control, autonomic body functions, and in learning, memory, and attention. In those last three, it functions in similar ways to glutamate.

I dont think it's guaranteed that any of the above caused your depression, but who knows.

At least you know that fluoxetine (Prozac) and you probably wouldn't be a good fit .....

Administration of 5-HTP alone depletes catecholamines (dopamine, norepinephrine, and epinephrine).