You think ME is bad - try having a "Psychogenic movement disorder"!

[A.B.]

I wonder what the public opinion on the use of chemical warfare was. Was there a reason to pretend that chemical warfare couldn't be related to these health problems?

Did some powerful people say "let's just just send the victims of poisoning to the shrinks - they will never fail to find some psychological disorder and genuinely believe it".

 

[chipmunk1]

does not make much sense to me because you could always accuse the enemy of using poison gas while claiming that you are innocent.

The use ofpoison gasperformed by all major belligerents throughout World War I constitutedwar crimesas its use violated the1899 Hague Declaration Concerning Asphyxiating Gasesand the1907 Hague Convention on Land Warfare, which prohibited the use of "poison or poisoned weapons" in warfare.[3][

Long-term health effects[edit]
Soldiers who claimed to have been exposed to chemical warfare have often presented with unusual medical conditions which has led to much controversy. The lack of information has left doctors, patients, and their families in the dark in terms of prognosis and treatment. Nerve agents such as sarin, tabun, and soman are believed to have the most significant long-term health effects.[73]Chronic fatigue and memory loss have been reported to last up to three years after exposure. In the years following World War One, there were many conferences held in attempts to abolish the use of chemical weapons all together, such asThe Washington Conference(1921–22), Geneva Conference (1923–25) and theWorld Disarmament Conference(1933). Although the United States was an original signatory of theGeneva Protocolin 1925, theUS Senatedid not formally ratify it until 1975.
Although the health effects are generally chronic in nature, the exposures were generally acute. A positive correlation has been proven between exposure to mustard agents and skin cancers, other respiratory and skin conditions, leukemia, several eye conditions, bone marrow depression and subsequent immunosuppression, psychological disorders and sexual dysfunction.[74]Chemicals used in the production of chemical weapons have also left residues in the soil where the weapons were used. The chemicals that have been detected can cause cancer and can have an impact on a person's brain, blood, liver, kidneys and skin.[75]
Despite the evidence in support of long-term health effects, there are studies that show just the opposite. Some US veterans who were closely affected by chemical weapons showed no neurological evidence in the following years. These same studies showed that one single contact with chemical weapons would be enough to cause long-term health effects.[76]

 

[chipmunk1]

I wonder what the public opinion on the use of chemical warfare was. Was there a reason to pretend that chemical warfare couldn't be related to these health problems?

Did some powerful people say "let's just just send the victims of poisoning to the shrinks - they will never fail to find some psychological disorder and genuinely believe it".

Perhaps they didn't want to know the soldiers about the effects of chemical warfare as this could have lead to a decline of morale and willingness to fight.

Another simple explanation is that no one understood the effects of chemical injury on the brain well and no one could give a clear answer. Then as always, the shrinks took over and claimed they fully understood the illness and were able to treat it. If it didn't work they blamed the victim not the therapy.

 

[Jeckylberry]

Are these wartime related illnesses regarded as "functional movement disorders"?

When spiritual advisors, shamans and other practioners say the illness was caused by demons, spirits or other worldly causes they are laughed at. They have a lot of "evidence" for their conclusions or else they would not be around at all. This is no different to medicos making up diagnoses for people with inexplicable symptoms. Shoehorn them into something psychogenic - If iany part of the treatment works, it is considered 'evidence' of the diagnosis.

The way in which unexplained neurological symptoms are gathered under a psychiatric diagnosis relies on poor evidence.



So a normal reaction would be to question the psychiatric categorisation of such disorders.

But on the contrary, they just congratulate each other for having removed any psychogenic ethiology for functional neurological disorder in the DSMV. (the exact opposite of the Somatic symptom disorder of the DSMV, where they added (poor) mandatory psychological symptoms).



So great, now we can diagnose a psychiatric case without any psychiatric symptom! Well done guys!

I am very interested in your take, everyone. My neurologist argues that FND is real and that there is evidence that it is a valid neurological illness. It can be cured with physio and psychology. Psychology puts the mind right and the physio does the rest. He lets himself down in my view by asserting you can't be cured if you don't believe in the diagnosis. I have no idea how to validate that idea.

Teaching a damaged brain to function again is a proven method that helps many people who have had a stroke or other brain injury and slows the decline of progressive illnesses like Parkinsons Plus. Where I am confused, I think, is whether he is saying it is psychogenic or not. He seems to be saying it's physical, caused by learned behaviour (psychiatric). He says there is no distinction between physical and psychiatric as far as the brain is concerned. It learns to use certain pathways wrongly for whatever reason.

What do you think? Could some illnesses such as dragging a leg or collapsing at the knees be triggered by a past strong stressful event and learnt by the brain to keep up the action? If so then physio to retrain the step and some help to manage triggers would surely help. That would mean that it is stupid for doctors to run a mile as it is quite correctable. But then you have the problem of people like me with a much more complicated problem getting misdiagnosed. Is it a legitimate illness or is it a lazy, misguided construction?

 

[Woolie]

Hmm, @Jeckylberry, sounds like a major fudge to me. He thinks its psychiatric, but is trying to conceal this from you with confusing and inappropriate analogies.

It is possible, I suppose for a movement abnormality to arise as a response to something like pain or weakness due to an injury, then become "learned" so that it continues even when the pain/weakness resolves. Then you might need physio. But where's the need for psychology/psychiatry there? And why on earth would you need to "believe" in the diagnosis?

Could some illnesses such as dragging a leg or collapsing at the knees be triggered by a past strong stressful event and learnt by the brain to keep up the action?

This sounds highly implausible to me. An extreme hypothesis like this requires strong evidence, and I'm yet to see it.

He says there is no distinction between physical and psychiatric as far as the brain is concerned. It learns to use certain pathways wrongly for whatever reason.

This is a popular refrain amongst these folks. Its true only to the extent that psychiatric illnesses have a biological basis too. But that's not what he's trying to say, he's claiming the opposite: that you can "think" your way into a neurological abnormality. Hmmm.

 

[Jeckylberry]

Thank you for helping me unpack this tangle of stories and misinformation, Woolie! I knew intuitively that there is something wrong with it all but I am not researched enough in this field to fully grasp what the hell he was getting at and where the fallacies are located. Neither have I had any experience of this level of manipulation. I have tended to be too trusting of the rhetoric.

 

[chipmunk1]

I am very interested in your take, everyone. My neurologist argues that FND is real and that there is evidence that it is a valid neurological illness. It can be cured with physio and psychology. Psychology puts the mind right and the physio does the rest. He lets himself down in my view by asserting you can't be cured if you don't believe in the diagnosis. I have no idea how to validate that idea.

He doesn't either. Ask him for evidence.

Can people learn to ride a bicycle even if they believe they can't?

I didn't realise that emotionally troubled or stressed individuals are incapable of learning. Surely they could perform worse.
Not learn at all? You have learned to find your way to your neurologists practice. How was that possible without psychological intervention?

Teaching a damaged brain to function again is a proven method that helps many people who have had a stroke or other brain injury and slows the decline of progressive illnesses like Parkinsons Plus. Where I am confused, I think, is whether he is saying it is psychogenic or not. He seems to be saying it's physical, caused by learned behaviour (psychiatric). He says there is no distinction between physical and psychiatric as far as the brain is concerned. It learns to use certain pathways wrongly for whatever reason.

I would say that there is no conclusive evidence that it learns to use certain pathways wrongly. Ask him for that.This is just opinion.

Strangely the unlearning process seems to happen overnight for no reason. I have yet to hear that someone has unlearned basic stuff like riding a bicycle overnight. Now even if there are cases like that that doesn't exclude the possibility that there is some pathological process or brain damage involved.

Strangely we have no driver checks. If conversion disorders are so common we must have quite a few drivers on the road who forgot all their driving lessons overnight and are a threat to themselves and others.

What are about pilots? The airlines must have known that some of their pilots with marital problems don't know how to fly a plane anymore. If not someone better tell them!

What about medical doctors? They are constantly under stress. Shouldn't there be checks if they forgot their degree?

What do you think? Could some illnesses such as dragging a leg or collapsing at the knees be triggered by a past strong stressful event and learnt by the brain to keep up the action?

Of course it could. Anything could be possible.The question is, is this just an opinion or is there any solid evidence base for that?

Also the question is not only if it is possible but if there is a better explanation for what we are seeing. Is this the best theory available?

In my opinion that sounds totally nonsensical.
I wonder if they are really honest with you or if they are making stuff up to make you compliant.

If so then physio to retrain the step and some help to manage triggers would surely help. That would mean that it is stupid for doctors to run a mile as it is quite correctable. But then you have the problem of people like me with a much more complicated problem getting misdiagnosed. Is it a legitimate illness or is it a lazy, misguided construction?

You can try to re-learn the function. If you can't even if you try hard then you have either become incapable of learning something new or it has nothing to do with learned behaviour.

The fact that they want you to address the psyche first shows that this is not just about learning. It is about your mental state. Your emotions, your psyche. They believe that is the cause.

It's not a new theory. It's over hundred years old and in the past they have been wrong very often. I am not even sure if they have been right even once. If i remember correctly about 50% of psychogenic movement disorders that had been known in the seventies are considered to be organic today.

 

[daisybell]

The whole thing makes no sense to me. How can the brain 'learn' a behaviour that comes on out of the blue? Learning takes place over time through positive reinforcement... And usually the behaviour is refined as practice occurs. If the reason for the behaviour isn't obvious to either the patient or the doctor, you would hope that both parties would be able to agree that there is no benefit to learning the behaviour and therefore there must be another reason for it occurring....

 

[chipmunk1]

The whole thing makes no sense to me. How can the brain 'learn' a behaviour that comes on out of the blue? Learning takes place over time through positive reinforcement... And usually the behaviour is refined as practice occurs. If the reason for the behaviour isn't obvious to either the patient or the doctor, you would hope that both parties would be able to agree that there is no benefit to learning the behaviour and therefore there must be another reason for it occurring....

very often these psychogenic movement disorders, appear virtually overnight without any known psychological trigger involved. Often there is a minor (or even sometimes a major) injury preceding the problems.

years of learning and creating neural pathways are undone and perfectly unlearned or relearned within a day.

and if you don't believe you can get better you can't. Sounds like brainwashing to me.

Strange that they don't tell students at school you have to believe that you can learn to succeed otherwise you won't.

 

[alex3619]

You can try to re-learn the function. If you can't even if you try hard then you have either become incapable of learning something new or it has nothing to do with learned behaviour.

That, to me, is the purpose of physiotherapy in brain disorders. The brain is damaged, so you learn it all over again.

 

[alex3619]

years of learning and creating neural pathways are undone and perfectly unlearned or relearned within a day.

Which, again and again, is evidence against psychogenic claims. There is also the case that, with ME at least, sometimes we get temporary remissions. So, one day one has psychogenic ME, the next day cured, then the next day psychogenic ME again? These people love their fallacies.

 

[chipmunk1]

Which, again and again, is evidence against psychogenic claims. There is also the case that, with ME at least, sometimes we get temporary remissions. So, one day one has psychogenic ME, the next day cured, then the next day psychogenic ME again? These people love their fallacies.

They would simply say that fact that it goes away proves that it is not a real illness and that you can be well if you want to.

I think the real fallacy is that they can not prove that it is psychogenic since a large part of bodily functions is not understood. Excluding known pathologies doesn't prove the non-existence of unknown pathologies.

 

[alex3619]

Whether this scene reflected something that Freud actually saw, I don't know. I do fear, however, that the film may have inspired a generation of students considering the field of psychology to think that psychogenic illness was just that simple.

Was this a demonstration by Charcot? He used actors to put on a show. The show was the thing.

 

[alex3619]

The absence of evidence magically becomes evidence. The behaviorists are collectively insane.

More like shamanistic or voodoo priests. They need to invoke magic, unproven causal factors, in order to make their claims. Which of course depend on patient belief to work. However they hide this by naming the mechanism as mental, which is in this case is again code for unproven. There is not much different here from modern magical thinking, such as the Law of Attraction.

 

[chipmunk1]

Was this a demonstration by Charcot? He used actors to put on a show. The show was the thing.

some of Charcot's patients were said to be attention seekers who enjoyed playing the hysterics on stage and the attention they got from that. They were doing what they were expected to do.

 

[alex3619]

I do think we can fight attitudes to our illness better if we extend our argument to all conditions at risk of a "functional" interpretation and raise awareness of this issue. Plus, like you, I don't want any person ending up on the receiving end of a poorly characterised "psychogenic" diagnosis, whatever their illness.

Yes, this is my assessment too. The entire notion of a psychogenic disorder rests on a defined fallacy, the Psychogenic Inference.

 

[Jeckylberry]

Wow! Guys! I am LOVING this discussion. I'm learning heaps. Love the logic. I'm reminded of Bender in Futurama grabbing the bars in the back of the museum saying "I can't do it, I can't do it!" while bending the bars. It doesn't matter if he believes he can't. He's a Bender, and he bends bars.

Functional disorders are said to happen suddenly and you literally forget a movement. Everyting goes unco. It's nuts that this is because you were an abused child! I'm at a total loss to see how I could have done better. I did the physio, I went to the psychologist. I doubted the diagnosis but how does this stop me from improving??? Why won't I get better by retraining my legs to walk normally since I have somehow "forgotten" how?

If I'm not improving surely that means that the diagnosis, the treatment or both are wrong! Yet he just sat there, didn't examine me or test my reflexes, check my eyes, my facial muscles, my walking. Nothing. Just told me I didn't believe so I wasn't going to get better. What a prognosis. I'm totally f'd then because I'll never believe it.

I don't think he was fudging. He genuinely believed in what he was saying. He was quite passionate. Said there was plenty of evidence to show that it works if you believe... He is from some big facility in the UK. They have a website: neurosymptoms.org. That's where i get all my little leaflets from. Every hospital in Brisbane, probably elsewhere too, gives out the same ones so it is all coming from the one source, informing the whole community who all know each other. This means if you, as I did, try to find answers elsewhere, they will trot out exactly the same rhetoric. At great expense I went down to Sydney to a fancy clinic. Met the SAME intern I'd seen in Brisbane #$&(AWKWARD) And I knew instantly, this is gonna be the same old bs. Again they didn't examine me much, just checked my slow walking-through-water action for a few meters, heard my resulting slurred speech. He nodded in absolute assurance. It's functional. Noted then ignored my tachycardia. They're all dipped in the one trough. Not sure if Aus is particularly backward in this field??? How can they tell so quickly? It totally baffles me. How is it so incredibly obvious? Are they just all newly converted and eager to assign me to the ranks or what?

 

[Sidereal]

just checked my slow walking-through-water action for a few meters, heard my resulting slurred speech. He nodded in absolute assurance. It's functional. Noted then ignored my tachycardia.

Do you have tachycardia when upright? What's your pulse like when you're lying flat on your back?

 

[Jeckylberry]

Do you have tachycardia when upright? What's your pulse like when you're lying flat on your back?

Lying down my pulse is about 80. When I exert myself by walking or have an unco moment - like some sort of seizure, it goes up to around 120. Sometimes it happens simply when I stand up. I go all puffy in the face. It's quite remarkable. Except to them.

 

[Sidereal]

Lying down my pulse is about 80. When I exert myself by walking or have an unco moment - like some sort of seizure, it goes up to around 120. I go all puffy in the face. It's quite remarkable. Except to them.

What's your pulse like when you're just standing still for a while?