xmrv and autism

Messages
1,575
Likes
165
I missed this article by David Kirby in the Huffington Post, Oct 12, 09,
Is Autism Associated with Viral Infection?

I couldn't find it in search but do hope it hasn't already been posted - I'll check the media link thread again and if it's not there, add it there too.

As Dr. Mikovits explained to a television news program in Nevada, "It is not in the paper and not reported, but we have actually done some of these studies (in ASD children) and found the virus in a significant number of samples that we have tested for. It could be linked to a number of neuro-immune diseases, including autism. It certainly won't be all, because there are genetic defects that result in autism. But there are also the environmental effects; there is always the hypothesis that, 'My child was fine and then they got sick, and then they got autism.'"

According to Dr. Mikovits, XMRV (which admittedly sounds like a satellite radio system for your Winnebago) can lie dormant in people, until it is "turned on or off" by other factors, such as stress hormones like cortisol, or in response to the presence of inflammatory "cytokines," protein molecules secreted by immune cells to help regulate the immune system.

And then Dr. Mikovits dropped a bombshell that is sure to spark controversy.

"On that note, if I might speculate a little bit," she said, "This might even explain why vaccines would lead to autism in some children
, because these viruses live and divide and grow in lymphocytes -- the immune response cells, the B and the T cells. So when you give a vaccine, you send your B and T cells in your immune system into overdrive. That's its job. Well, if you are harboring one virus, and you replicate it a whole bunch, you've now broken the balance between the immune response and the virus. So you have had the underlying virus, and then amplified it with that vaccine, and then set off the disease, such that your immune system could no longer control other infections, and created an immune deficiency."

So there you have it - a possible explanation of regressive autism in a significant number of cases associated with immune system deregulation triggered by vaccination.

Of course, much more work is needed to nail down the exact significance of such an association. For example, is the virus implicated in the cause of autism, or do children harbor the virus as a result of autism?
islandfinn:)
 

starryeyes

Senior Member
Messages
1,516
Likes
9
Location
Bay Area, California
In other words, the last question seems to be asking, "Is XMRV caught through a vaccine or was it in the body already and the vaccine turned it on?"

Right? That how I read it.
 

gracenote

All shall be well . . .
Messages
1,537
Likes
76
Location
Santa Rosa, CA
XMRV first?

I'm reading it differently.
So you have had the underlying virus, and then amplified it with that vaccine, and then set off the disease, such that your immune system could no longer control other infections, and created an immune deficiency.
If you already have XMRV, then getting a vaccine could be the trigger that creates the immune deficiency where all hell breaks loose. If this reading is right, and it may be way too early to tell, then in the future we may be able to find out who might react badly to vaccines. Obviously, not everyone does, but the ones that do seem to have catastrophic responses.

Cort lists this article on the XMRV resources page under Blogs. I'm not sure if it's been placed anywhere else.
 

starryeyes

Senior Member
Messages
1,516
Likes
9
Location
Bay Area, California
Oh yeah. That's how I originally read it last week or so too. But in this article they say:

For example, is the virus implicated in the cause of autism, or do children harbor the virus as a result of autism?
However, I realize now that that's the reporter asking the question not Mikovits. Mikovits is a more reliable source of course.
 

Mark

Former CEO
Messages
5,238
Likes
6,198
Location
Sofa, UK
I'm just amazed that Mikovits dared to go there with autism and vaccines. Perhaps they are just dead confident that they've got everyone's attention with the brilliance of the original study and now they can take big risks. But a lot of people who see that are going to immediately brand the whole thing as a conspiracy theory and switch straight off.

They really shouldn't though, because if they look at the detail of Mikovits' stunning theory it becomes the first credible explanation of an autism-vaccine connection. If you look on the wikipedia page on autism, the objection to a link with vaccines is that there's no credible biological reason why a vaccine would cause autism. Well this theory definitely is a credible biological explanation, and one that would never have occurred to anyone prior to this research.

It's also an interesting numbers game. If 3.7% of the population have XMRV, and the chance of passing it on to your children is, say, 50%, then let's say 2% of infants have XMRV. The stress of the vaccine is enough to trigger autism and/or CFS in some (perhaps small) proportion of those infants. And on top of that, perhaps the key thing that stops the whole phenomenon from showing up in a statistically significant way in the trials, is the fact that the kids that are vulnerable because they have XMRV are likely going to get autism/CFS as soon as they get sick or stressed anyway. So this latter point could mean that the effect of the vaccine is just to speed up the emergence of the condition a bit, so there's barely any difference between the vaccinated kids and the controls.

In other words, on the face of it, you can see why individuals and doctors with clusters of XMRV patients would notice this effect on the basis of how quickly it happened after the vaccine was given, that being an observable anecdotal pattern in an individual's life-history, but the whole thing would not show up as statistically significant in trials.

As always, there is safety in numbers...but only if you are a number...
 
Messages
337
Likes
0
Actually there are some epidemiologic studies where they simply looked empirically at whether there was any vaccine-autism association, regardless of what mechanisms might exist. At least for thimerosol. I dont know about MMR but I strongly suspect so. See here for more info in plain english: http://pipeline.corante.com/archives/autism/

Of course its true that no matter how large a study you do, there could be some effect that you would fail to observe at a statistically significant level. But the maximum size of a missed effect declines with the size of the study, and these kind of studies tend to be big, and their design tends to be checked out beforehand by stats jocks who make sure they are big enough, etc.

Regardless of anything else, I think that talking about vaccines and autism on TV etc with no formal evidence is bad politics. People are quite worried about the effects of declining vaccine "uptake". At the least, this issue should just be deferred until two years from now.
 

willow

Senior Member
Messages
240
Likes
8
Location
East Midlands
Athene

Hello Athene,

I'm impressed by your story. Well done for being so procactive and recovering your son. I've a friend who with her husband has recovered their ASD son, and they continue to treat themselves and their child.

I've also thought that about myself and my family. In my generation I've a cousin who I think has undiagnosed high functioning Aspergers, his sister has had an acute anxiety condition from age 10, and they had a sister whose life support was turned off following complications from, I think, herpes zooster. Weird that with herpes zooster and in the context of her family. I also have a nephew with ASD, I'm a bit worried about some symptoms I'm told of in his sister.

If I look back at my grandmother, I believe that she had an infection that was passed down, and some of us have immune function more able to cope with it than others. I haven't seen my family in some time, but I used to be able to smell it in some of them. Sounds off the wall, but really I think I could.

Yes, I totally agree there are common factors, and would love my family to take this on board and treat to improve the quality of life, especially with the little ones. Perhaps one day, but just now I don't think they've even read any of the papers or book ideas I've sent them.

It could be XRMV, I'm unsure. Either way hoping there'll be more info soon.

Again, well done on improving your little boy's life so much.
 

MEKoan

Senior Member
Messages
2,629
Likes
117
He made a total recovery mentally. He still has terrible guts and gets migraines but he talks 2 languages, he looks at me, he plays, he is normal. His autism diagnosis has been officially removed and his doctor says it is "a miracle that she cannot explain." She totally ignores me when I talk about what I did to make him better.
If she cannot explain it, it must be miraculous and, certainly, beyond the comprehension of a mother.

The assumption that our experience is to be automatically dismissed out of hand just blows my mind.

You must be a very strong woman.

with admiration,
Koan
 

Frickly

Senior Member
Messages
1,049
Likes
39
Location
Texas
Athene

I wonder if you guys may be interested to hear my story.
I've had CFS for 25 years and I had a baby 4 years ago, who also has CFS.

He was breastfed and developed awful gut problems right away. Viruses are transmitted through breastmilk and Nancy Mikovits has confirmed XMRV is transmitted this way.

When he was 10 months my son had an operation and went into mental decline. He was diagnosed as severely autistic at age 2. He showed all the classic signs.

I started researching bio-medical interventions for autism and removed dairy and gluten from his diet, insisted he was tested for food allergies and removed many other foods. I gave him massive doses of certain nutrients he was deficient in - the same ones I take.

He made a total recovery mentally. He still has terrible guts and gets migraines but he talks 2 languages, he looks at me, he plays, he is normal. His autism diagnosis has been officially removed and his doctor says it is "a miracle that she cannot explain." She totally ignores me when I talk about what I did to make him better.

The things autistic children and PWCs have in common are:
1. fatigue
2. cognitive disturbances (bad memory, inability to concentrate, rapid mental fatigue)
3. sensory disturbances (light hurt your eyes, anyone? little sounds are way too loud?)
4. chronic gastro-intestinal inflammation with infiltration of lymphocytes
5. breakdown of the methylation cycle through gross Vitamin b12 deficiency leading to heavy metal overload and liver damage
6. breakdown of the sulfation process leading to intestinal membrane damage and leakage of neurotoxic substances from gut to bloodstream to brain (I'm talking about brain fog and gut ache)
I could add far more, the list of all the identified biomarkers (weird stuff in urine etc etc), immune and neurological damage is almost identical.

Parents of autistic children claim the triggers for their child's illness were:
a) vaccine
b) severe infection, usually viral
c) in rare cases, extreme psychological trauma
My doctor has found this same list of initial triggers for CFS in his patients.

I personally have thought for a long time that CFS and autism were very closely connected and had a common mechanism if not a common cause. There may be some genetic difference affecting the fact that autistic children get worse damage to the sensory and cognitive functioning than we do, but frankly I think if you introduce this illness to a brain that is only just starting to develop, to someone who is only just learning to interact with others, to recognise the meaning of facial expressions and integrate the various sensory stimuli they receive all day, well, they are not going to develop as a normal person are they? When I first got ME it was in the middle of doing my degree in Latin and Greek. It got so bad that I could no longer read and I struggled to understand spoken English. I could hardly ever formulate a response. And that is what I think was going on in my poor little boy's poisoned brain.

If anyone is seriously interested in this I can post links explaining all the biomedical markers for autism and anyone up to date with CFS research will be astonished to see that they are practically identical.

Athene.
I would be interested in seeing this links. I have also thought for some time that my CFS and sons aspergers, ocd, tourettes is linked. I have done alot of research and agree that there are many simularities. I hope that more studies are done on XMRV and autism. If I am positive for XMRV I will be testing my son and rest of family. This is an exciting time for CFS and autism.
 

JillBohr

Senior Member
Messages
247
Likes
0
Location
Columbus, OH
Hello Athene!

I am a mother of two children on the spectrum and I have a sister-in-law with CFS and an aunt with CFS as well. While researching both, I, too, discovered a link between CFS and Autism. I have been following Dr. Goldberg's work on CFS and autism. It is called NIDS. Dr. Goldberg discovered this link about 20 years ago! I cannot believe how slow science moves.

I must say that I dismissed the link between vaccines and autism but I found Dr. Goldberg very credible because it may not be the vaccine that causes the trigger but it could be any illness. I am very pro-vaccine and I hope that people still continue to vaccinate but with the XMRV discovery, we may need to adjust the vaccine schedule to make it safer for our children.
 

richvank

Senior Member
Messages
2,732
Likes
917
To athene re: breakdown at different steps

Hi, Athene.

You may be referring to the following:

The biochemistry of the body is made up of cycles and pathways. They in turn consist of sequences of biochemical reactions. Most of the reactions are catalyzed by enzymes. The enzymes are proteins, and they are coded for by the genes, made up of DNA molecules. There are of the order of 30,000 genes in the human. For the most part, these genes are the same in all of us. However, we each inherit some variations in these genes from our parents. They are what make each of us unique.

Many of these variations, also called polymorphisms, among which the main ones are SNPs (single nucleotide polymorphisms) don't have much effect on how the enzymes function. However, some do have important effects. They may either cause an enzyme to speed up the reaction it catalyzes, or to slow it down. This may be what you are referring to in terms of there being "blocks" in different places.

In the methylation cycle and related biochemical cycles and pathways, the person who has done the most work with this, in terms of how it impacts treatment, is Dr. Amy Yasko. I don't know if you are familiar with her work, but her main website is www.dramyyasko.com. She also has a large discussion forum at www.ch3nutrigenomics.com. She focuses mainly on autism, but she also helps adults with various disorders, including CFS.

I have applied Dr. Yasko's work to CFS, in a simplified form. Both autism and CFS appear to involve a partial block at the enyzme methionine synthase. The various polymorphisms appear to cause a person to be more susceptible to developing this partial block. The simplified treatment approach that I have suggested is directed at lifting this block. Dr. Yasko tailors her treatment approach to the individual, depending on their particular SNPs. In using the simplified treatment approach, I have essentially ignored these differences, in order to make the treatment simpler and less expensive. The full Yasko treatment is very complex and involves a lot of testing and a lot of supplements. It also demands that the person (or the parent in the case of autistic children) learn a lot of biochemistry and genetics, which is O.K. for some people, but others simply cannot do this, especially with the cognitive problems inherent in CFS.

If you want to learn more about Dr. Yasko's approach, you could join her forum and/or get a copy of her book "The Puzzle of Autism." Her books and DVDs are not easy to read or watch, but they contain a lot of information.

I hope I have addressed what you were asking about.

Rich
 

Advocate

Senior Member
Messages
528
Likes
88
Location
U.S.A.
Hi, Athene.

With regard to the relationship between CFS and autism, you might be interested to read an article I wrote that was published in the Townsend Letter in October, 2006. Here's where it can be found:

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0ISW/is_279/ai_n16865315/

Best regards,

Rich
Hi Rich,

Somewhere you posted information about the methylation panel done by Vitamin Diagnostics, Inc., in Cliffwood Beach, NJ. The numbers you gave were +1 (732) 583-7735 (phone) and +1 (732) 588-7774 (fax). I confirmed the numbers with a google search.

When I dial those numbers, something very peculiar happens. Dead silence. No rings of any kind.

I've tried calling on Tuesdays and Wednesdays between 1 p.m. and 3 p.m., because you mentioned those are the times the lab director--Tapan Audhya, PhD--is usually there, and the same thing happens.

Do you suppose the lab has gone out of business?
 
A

anne

Guest
Regardless of anything else, I think that talking about vaccines and autism on TV etc with no formal evidence is bad politics. People are quite worried about the effects of declining vaccine "uptake". At the least, this issue should just be deferred until two years from now.
I really agree with this, and you can see how panicked it made Annette. I'm guessing Dr. M is so focused on the science that wouldn't occur to her--she just thinks its interesting and an exciting thing to research. But the WPI does not need to go around speculating about a vaccine-autism link because it could discredit what they are doing in mainstream science's eyes.

I don't think she's brought it up again, though.
 

Marylib

Senior Member
Messages
448
Likes
51
Location
New Zealand
What are kids vaccinated for these days?

I am just curious -- what vaccinations do kids get nowadays. Does anyone have a "list."

I think when I was a kid we got "DPT and then polio vaccine. Maybe that was all...:confused:
 

Advocate

Senior Member
Messages
528
Likes
88
Location
U.S.A.
Apparently they have moved. New info:

Phone: (732) 721-1234
Vitamin Diagnostics
540 Bordentown Ave
South Amboy, New Jersey 08879
Thanks, Garcia. I'd been trying to reach them for weeks at their old number and was beginning to think it must be a shady, fly-by-night operation.

As it turns out, they have only an office--not a lab--in New Jersey. The woman who answered told me that they collect specimens there and send them to the Netherlands for testing. She said that they don't have a website; if a doctor calls, they will send a brochure; and if a doctor requests it they will send a test kit. Can't be a chiropractor, she said.
 
A

anne

Guest
I do appreciate the importance of vaccines in quelling epidemics, but I don't think the parents of autistic children would agree with you that this can wait 2 years.
no, you're right. And I don't wait them to wait, because I want this info if we have another child. I just think they need to have a lot of evidence before they talk about this, because once some people hear vaccines/autism, they shut off. It's such a powderkeg issue, they're going to have to introduce it carefully and with a lot to back them up.

I am just curious -- what vaccinations do kids get nowadays. Does anyone have a "list."
I would tell you, but I can't count that high.
 

froufox

Senior Member
Messages
440
Likes
71
Hi Marylib,

Here are the current schedules for children in the US and the UK..

http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/recs/schedules/child-schedule.htm

http://www.immunisation.nhs.uk/Immunisation_Schedule

Yes they definitely receive more inoculations these days compared to when I was a child too with the introduction of the MMR, meningitis vaccine and more recently the one for HPV. Like you we got the DPT and polio as a baby then measles and then one for rubella when I was a bit older.

This is slightly out of date but gives a good overview of vaccine schedules around the world..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaccination_schedule