Why would mitochondria boosters make me more tired?

[newbie_85]

I tried many things to improve mitochondria function such as ALCAR, N-acetyl cysteine, Methylene Blue, red light and some other ways and each time I try it gives me some energy only first day but then following days if I continue the mitochondria boosters I am only more tired, noticeable more tired than before I started.

I really don't understand why. Does there exist also condition where somebody actually have overdrove mitochondria instead of weak mitochondria function?

 

[linusbert]

i think this is pretty common in cfs. i have the same problem, everything which accelerates metabolism makes me worse.

there are so many theories, i dont know what to pick.
- the mitos could already be in a state where they are constantly overdriving
- also metabolism might not run efficient, so a lot of radicals are produced when mitos run high. slowing down metabolism and mitochondria could be mechanism of body to protect from those radicals.
- the mitos might just not be able to produce more atp and instead run dirty - more oxidants
- fat metabolism might not work correctly, so mitos run anaerob and burn sugar instead of fat when there is more demand for energy through stimulants.

have you checked out pantethine? its my current molecule of investigation, looks promising in regards of fat metabolism and atp production:
https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/medicine-and-dentistry/pantethine

 

[LINE]

ME is a complex metabolic issue, that is the immune system plays a key role in modulating the metabolic rate. This is why you will see things that work for 'normal' people oftentimes do not work for ME.

Rule #1 is that everyone is quite different in terms of reactions to supplements. One person may have an adverse reaction while the other has a positive experience.

Rule #2 is that there is a network of needed support. For instance, @linusbert mentions pantetheine (or pantothenic acid, pantetheine is an advanced form of pantothenic acid). There are other nutrients that should be considered such as Vitamin B2, B6, Vitamin C etc. Of course, this is a short list which excludes other vital nutrients.

Rule #3 is the role of detoxification. There is impairment in ME of clearing toxins that are created by the immune response and just metabolic processes. This rule has served me well.

 

[newbie_85]

I just read about other theory somebody wrote in reddit.
"Possibly a build up of senescent cells are the problem. SCs produce SASP, which is just inflammatory cytokines being released. SCs also have mitochondria. So by taking boosters you are also boosting them, and increasing SASP. I’ve seen some success stories using rapamycin for a few months first to get rid of the SCs, then boosting the mitochondria."

Beside Rapamycin there are some other ways that may help removing senescent cells:
-Fisetin (available as supplement)
-Combining tocotrienols with quercetin (https://www.lifeextension.com/magazine/2016/10/natural-compounds-that-remove-aging-cells)
-Grape seed extract (https://www.nature.com/articles/s42255-021-00491-8)
-Metformin
-Plasma exchange (Plasmapheresis)
-Sulphur baths or natural hot springs. Hydrogen Sulfide appears to kill them.
-Dietary restriction. One of the reasons may be also Number of cell types - but primarily liver cells - begin to produce hydrogen sulfide with dietary restriction
-Taurine to boost endogenous production of hydrogen sulfide (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5471864/)
-Boosting NAD+ (maybe?)

 

[LINE]

Good. So much of this issue is discovery which requires trial and error. Baseline nutrients provide the foundation.

 

[Garz]

i agree that there could be some other imbalance in the system so providing more of one thing - could just cause more of a log jam somewhere else and the mitochondria to produce more free radicals

but the other option worth considering is that you may be suffering a die off reaction from the anti-microbial effects of some of these supplements

methylene blue is actually a powerful antimicrobial - it was developed as an antimalaria - but Zhang et al at Johns Hopkins recently found it was particularly potent against bartonella bacteria in vitro - more so than any of the conventional antibiotics normally used to treat that infection - i mention this as i recently found bartonella is the cause of my CFS and PEM

there is a great deal of symptoms overlap - general blood tests etc are usually normal in both chronic Bartonellosis and CFS - diagnostic testing is v poor - and as a result i suspect there are many people with CFS who actually have bartonella or similar infectious disease.

methylene blue is also a powerful biofilm disrupter

NAC is antimicrobial for several common infections - and also a biofilm disrupter

many people in the chronic bacterial infection community that i speak to have reactions including increasing fatigue and often body aches etc from both NAC, and methylene blue

there are also theories which propose that CFS is driven by some biofilm forming colony in the body triggering adverse reactions - eg Markov's theory of CFS discussed on this forum

this is the best primer on bartonella - by two of the world leading researchers / clinicians

Ed Breitschwerdts has been studying it for over 30 years - all of his work is first class
Bob Mozeyani specialises in treating patients with Bartonellosis