Why is Equilibriant (Oxymartine) Not Recommended in Patients with Autoimmunity?

[Jesse2233]

Dr Chia writes here that Equilibriant is not recommended in patients with autoimmune tendencies.

Do we know why that is?

And how does one test to see if they have autoimmune tendencies?

I'm thinking of starting it before I see Dr Chi, but I want to make sure I don't do anything adverse

@Hip @halcyon @Deltrus @Jonathan Edwards @alex3619

Thanks!

 

[Hip]

Dr Chia writes here that Equilibriant is not recommended in patients with autoimmune tendencies.

Do we know why that is?

Yes, because in those with autoimmune tendencies, oxymatrine can trigger an autoimmune condition such as rheumatoid arthritis.

Autoimmune tendency means a strong family history of autoimmune diseases such as rheumatoid arthritis, lupus, autoimmune thyroiditis (especially Graves disease), multiple sclerosis, and if the patients have joint pain with positive rheumatoid factor and persistently positive ANA.

Source: here.

 

[halcyon]

And how does one test to see if they have autoimmune tendencies?

In general, things like a positive ANA, RF, or anti-thyroid antibodies. Or having things like psoriasis, etc.

 

[Jesse2233]

Thanks guys, I'll have to check those

Just found out I have high titers for Coxsackie B4, I know you have the same @Hip. Been having chest pains and weird heart beat, seeing the cardiologist on Monday. Should I ask for IVIG to try and clear it early? Only 2.5 months in

 

[halcyon]

Should I ask for IVIG to try and clear it early? Only 2.5 months in

Hard to say. I know Chia has used it in the past, as well as the Brits, with mixed success.

 

[Jonathan Edwards]

Yes, because in those with autoimmune tendencies, oxymatrine can trigger an autoimmune condition such as rheumatoid arthritis.

I am not aware of a shred of evidence for that. I don't think a serious immunologist would use the term 'autoimmune tendency'. Lupus may present following certain drugs but it is unclear whether this is a causal effect in most cases.

(Also psoriasis is not an autoimmune disease.)

 

[halcyon]

(Also psoriasis is not an autoimmune disease.)

Guess I misremembered. Wikipedia and National Psoriasis Foundation both call it an autoimmune disease. My bad.

 

[Hip]

I am not aware of a shred of evidence for that.

From Dr Chia's presentation at the 2010 Invest in ME London conference (at 38:10):

1 patient out of 500 actually developed rheumatoid arthritis while taking the immune booster [oxymatrine]. She has a very strong family history of rheumatoid arthritis, and was having severe joint pain even before the herbal treatment, and now she's on treatment for rheumatoid arthritis, and is doing fine.

And it this article, it says:

Autoimmunity and Oxymatrine: (Dr. Chia suggested that patients with autoimmune tendencies should not take Oxymatrine. )

Autoimmune tendency means a strong family history of autoimmune diseases such as rheumatoid arthritis, lupus, autoimmune thyroiditis (especially Grave’s disease), multiple sclerosis, and if the patients have joint pain with positive rheumatoid factor and persistently positive ANA.

With the use of other potent Chinese herbs and oxymatrine over the last several years, we have seen two patients develop rheumatoid arthritis (presented at the Reno meeting and London IiME, London meeting).

And this article states that oxymatrine:

should not be used in patients with autoimmune tendency or known seizure disorders.

So it seems that Dr Chia is just being cautious about who he prescribes oxymatrine to, in case it might trigger some more cases of rheumatoid arthritis. I guess those cases of rheumatoid arthritis could have been just coincidence, but Chia is being cautious.

I am not aware of a shred of evidence for that. I don't think a serious immunologist would use the term 'autoimmune tendency'.

"Autoimmune tendency" I believe is just being used to mean a strong family history of autoimmune diseases, and/or if the patients have joint pain with positive rheumatoid factor and persistently positive ANA.

 

[Jonathan Edwards]

Guess I misremembered. Wikipedia and National Psoriasis Foundation both call it an autoimmune disease. My bad.

It came to be called that by a sort of Chinese Whispers because it seemed to be 'auto' and involved inflammation. But it has never been shown to involve immunity to self in the sense of specific adaptive immunity - which was the original meaning of autoimmunity and the only one that is worth keeping. The genetic predisposition factors involve MHC Class I and tend to point to a flaw in general T cell activation thresholds. The T cells certainly seem busy but there is no indication they are reacting to self antigens.

 

[Jonathan Edwards]

"Autoimmune tendency" I believe is just being used to mean a strong family history of autoimmune diseases, and/or if the patients have joint pain with positive rheumatoid factor and persistently positive ANA.

It probably is but the genetic factors are different and work differently for each disease so lumping them together as 'autoimmune tendency' is almost certain to lead to garbage arguments.

 

[Jesse2233]

Thank you @Jonathan Edwards @Hip @halcyon you guys are a wealth of information as always

So am I to assume then that psoriasis isn't a concern in terms of taking oxymartine?