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Why Fat Doesn't Make You Fat

mgk

Senior Member
Messages
155
I can't believe people are still repeating this story of carbs leading to weight gain because of insulin in 2016. It doesn't hold up to the slightest bit of scrutiny. There are many, many populations around the world who get the majority of their calories from carbs.

I'm not saying it's the other way around either. We just don't know yet, but there seems to be a new charlatan every month telling you they have the perfect diet. I think the best strategy is to ignore all of them. Look at what your grandma and grandpa ate as a starting point and then make modifications as needed by listening to your body.
 

msf

Senior Member
Messages
3,650
I don´t know about weight loss/gain, but mice live a lot longer on a high-carb diet than on a high-protein or a high-fat one. This has something to do with IGF1.

I get most of my calories from rice, and I lost 7 kilos last year. It helps if the carb isn´t a tasty carb.
 

Large Donner

Senior Member
Messages
866
I It doesn't hold up to the slightest bit of scrutiny. There are many, many populations around the world who get the majority of their calories from carbs.

Of those populations how many calories do they burn and how many calories do they consume per day?
 

mgk

Senior Member
Messages
155
Of those populations how many calories do they burn and how many calories do they consume per day?
Why does that matter? If high carb intake caused fatness, those populations would be fat as well regardless of other factors. Therefore, it's not the carbs, it's something else, whether calorie balance or genetics or something else entirely.
 

Large Donner

Senior Member
Messages
866
Why does that matter? If high carb intake caused fatness, those populations would be fat as well regardless of other factors.

Not quite. The carb issue is about high amounts of unused carbs. AKA a western diet and lifestyle. Do you think a bowl of rice a day whilst picking tea in a field all day long is going to make someone fat?
 

mgk

Senior Member
Messages
155
Not quite. The carb issue is about high amounts of unused carbs. AKA a western diet and lifestyle. Do you think a bowl of rice a day whilst picking tea in a field all day long is going to make someone fat?
"High amounts of unused carbs" is just code for "more calories than you burn." What makes them excessive? Who's to say that the fat or protein or something else isn't excessive instead?
 

Large Donner

Senior Member
Messages
866
Yes but the point is you said..

If high carb intake caused fatness, those populations would be fat as well regardless of other factors.

They wouldn't if they don't get alot of calories and they do alot of active work.

Do you think 2500 calories of granulated sugar a day would cause the same result as 2500 calories of fish meat and vegetables in a man who requires 2500 calories a day.

Also which food groups tell your brain you are full up and which ones dont.

Its also the issue of which fuel will will burn daily and which one will turn to fat if you eat alot more carbs than proteins and fat and you are not active.

Also the point about low carb is it is not meant as an active calorie counting diet anyway in the western countries where obesity is a problem. High fat and high proteins and a range of low carb veges means you don't crave the sugar from high carb foods and therefore do not over eat. You become accustomed to eating what your body actually needs and not addicted to spiking your blood with sugar rushes for quick artificial energy fixes.

Over eating carbs means you will probably lack in rounded nutrition so will always feel "hungry" and will mean you eat more calories than you need.

Where food is in abundance and people live sedentary lives that is a different predicament to countries where food is scarce and people work long hours in physical jobs.

How food metabolizes in different peoples genetics may be an issue, but a high sugar high carb diet in the west with relatively low activity levels is a recipe to gain weight.
 

Hip

Senior Member
Messages
17,770
Where food is in abundance and people live sedentary lives that is a different predicament to countries where food is scarce and people work long hours in physical jobs.

How food metabolizes in different peoples genetics may be an issue, but a high sugar high carb diet in the west with relatively low activity levels is a recipe to gain weight.

The idea that sedentary lives is responsible for the obesity epidemic does not stack up that well.

The global obesity epidemic only started around the beginning of the 1980s, so whatever factors you provide as explanations for the obesity epidemic, those factors need have only come into play in the 1980s onwards.

A major factor that appears from the 1980s onwards was the beginning of a large increase in the total number of calories in the food supply. The calorific energy consumption per capita shot up from the 1908s onwards, tallying with the increased prevalence of obesity.

See here: Why the surge in obesity?



Another interesting factor is infection with adenovirus 36. This virus is found in 30% of obese people, but only in 11% of the non-obese. And animals experimentally infected with adenovirus 36 (or adenovirus 5, or adenovirus 37) will develop increased obesity.

Adenovirus 36 induces obesity by infecting fat cells (adipocytes), and then the expression of the adenovirus E4orf1 gene turns on both the cell's fat producing enzymes and also triggers the generation of new fat cells.

So the global obesity epidemic that started in the 1980s might in part be attributable to an infectious epidemic with adenovirus 36.
 

GhostGum

Senior Member
Messages
316
Location
Vic, AU
@Hip Wasn't the 80's when soft drinks all started to change over to high fructose corn syrup? Along with a lot of other foods I imagine. I am pretty sure it is shown that when this is not burnt off it is much more effective at turning on lipogenesis than even standard refined sugar.

It is the old adage with all these topics though, not all carbs are the same and not all fats are the same; good quality and source is everything and you could have a majority of either and be fine if they are prime source (wild rices, wild fish). Fibre, greens and micros comes before either of these anyway IMO; nutrients before fuel thanks.

I agree with the theory that carbs are the culprit over fat though, it is just the horrible carbs that are the problem and clearly create a hunger/craving cycle, sugar and refined carbs are highly addictive you know? Combined with poor lifestyle and highly questionable food quality/additives these days.

They also say that the BPA leech from plastics is linked to obesity? :ill:
 

roller

wiggle jiggle
Messages
775
in asia, ppl eat rice. morning, noon, evening, night and in between.
there may be added some meet (chicken, usually), but not really much.

i think science failed to explain till now, why they are slim and more healthy.

that they burn more calories you can tick off. its not true.

the fat kids you will see with soft drinks.
 

mgk

Senior Member
Messages
155
Epigenetics could be another factor that's adding noise to the system. More and more people are eating diets different from their ancestors. I'm not talking about the "paleo" idea that's perpetuated on the internet. I'm talking about close ancestors: parents & grandparents. It could be that we are tuned from birth to a certain type of diet. It could also be that obesity is passed down to the next generation epigenetically. There's still a lot that we don't know.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nutriepigenomics
Nutriepigenomics is the study of food nutrients and their effects on human health through epigenetic modifications. There is now considerable evidence that nutritional imbalances during gestation and lactation are linked to non-communicable diseases, such as obesity, cardiovascular disease, diabetes, hypertension, and cancer. If metabolic disturbances occur during critical time windows of development, the resulting epigenetic alterations can lead to permanent changes in tissue and organ structure or function and predispose individuals to disease.
 

Hip

Senior Member
Messages
17,770
@Hip Wasn't the 80's when soft drinks all started to change over to high fructose corn syrup?

Fructose has been considered as a cause of obesity, but I believe it is mainly just the US which switched to using fructose and glucose (from high-fructose corn syrup) in their soft drinks, some time in the 1970s or 1980s I believe.

Soft drinks in Europe still use the original sucrose. Mexico also uses the original sucrose, which is why Mexican Coca-Cola tastes different to US Coca-Cola.
 

msf

Senior Member
Messages
3,650
As I mentioned above, it is related to lIGF1. We also eat grains. Rats and mice have only specialised in eating grains for as long as we have, for the very good reason that we were the first animals to store them year round.
 

Gondwanaland

Senior Member
Messages
5,077
As I mentioned above, it is related to lIGF1. We also eat grains. Rats and mice have only specialised in eating grains for as long as we have, for the very good reason that we were the first animals to store them year round.
Rodents have always stored them all year around. We have started doing it just recently. Don't get me wrong, I do think we adapted well to eating grains. The straightforward issue is that people with autoimmunity should avoid them exacty due to their immunomodulatory stimulatory role. Same thing for people with insulin resistance. All the others do just fine. I am also against the blanket recommendation of low carb high fat for everyone.
 
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Gondwanaland

Senior Member
Messages
5,077
Interesting take of Rob Wolff on the misuse of low carb dieting

http://robbwolf.com/2012/12/19/carb-paleo-thoughts-part-1/

http://robbwolf.com/2013/01/02/thoughts-carb-paleo-part-deux/

http://robbwolf.com/2013/01/09/thoughts-carb-paleo-episode-3-hope/

That LC can be used as a powerful therapeutic tool is without a doubt, but it has tricked more than just me intomistaking the effect of a therapeutic intervention for a cause. For more than 100 years medical practitioners recommended a LC approach for weight loss, but for the reasons related to specific individual insulin resistance AND satiety. Some folks do well on higher carb, some better on lower. We can do theory and internet flame wars all day and never get to a point that helps people. Or, we can take general guidelines, encourage folks to tinker, and actually see some results for our efforts.

One of the best explanations I have seen to date on both the important role of dietary carbohydrate in human health, and a credible mechanistic explanation of the pathogenesis of insulin resistance, is encapsulated in Chris Masterjohn’s talk at AHS 2012. I have seen similar proposed mechanisms of insulin resistance and fat gain being an adaptation to reduce oxidative stress since perhaps 2008, but Chris nails this.

Please watch the entire video and ponder upon it’s implications a bit, especially if you are leaning towards the Insulin hypothesis crowd.

Chris Masterjohn — Oxidative Stress & Carbohydrate Intolerance: An Ancestral Perspective from Ancestral Health Society on Vimeo.

We have a mechanism whereby excess calories can be either pushed through the mitochondria, causing severe oxidative stress, or we have fat gain and insulin resistance occurring in an effort to “lock up” excess calories and glucose, which can both pose significant metabolic problems. Let me say this again, as it’s important that folks get this: Insulin resistance is likely an effort to prevent cellular death due to free-radical production. This is facilitated by pushing substrates (primarily fat and carbs) into adipose tissue, which is RELATIVELY inert (aside from the hormonal messengers that adipose tissue produces). We also see elevated lipoproteins, triglycerides, and blood glucose as the body is trying to put nutrients ANYWHERE other than through the mitochondria.

( @ahmo @picante you will enjoy this)
 

MeSci

ME/CFS since 1995; activity level 6?
Messages
8,231
Location
Cornwall, UK

MeSci

ME/CFS since 1995; activity level 6?
Messages
8,231
Location
Cornwall, UK
I get most of my calories from rice, and I lost 7 kilos last year. It helps if the carb isn´t a tasty carb.
And I lost my excess weight by reducing carbs, but the weight loss started (effortlessly) when I cut out gluten.