Why aren't you giving ALA and Resveratrol a go? Lactic acid treatment

msf

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Wanted to attract people to the thread so I went for a confrontational title, but really, why aren't you?

What we know about ME suggests that both of these will help most patients with their lactic acid problems, and they have definitely helped me. I have worked full time for four months with no real problems, and the first day I didn't take either of the above that lactic acid feeling returned. I had forgotten how badly it affected my quality of life, today I was just trying to get through the day as I would have done before I started taking ALA and resveratrol. With them(especially in combination), I can actually enjoy my life and moreover actually feel like doing something after finishing work.

So, once again, if you can at all afford it, why not give it a go?

My current intake: 2-3 grams of Resveratrol, one or two doses, and 200 to 600 milligrams of ALA twice a day. I have no side effects with the first, and it and some other anti oxidants have helped me to avoid the potential nerve damage from the ALA (this probably wouldn't be big risk of I hadn't already got peripheral neuropathy from DCA, which I can understand why some people don't want to try).
 

Hip

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Interesting that you find ALA + resveratrol has noticeable benefits.

Note that there are some patients who become quite ill from ALA; these are thought to be those with high mercury levels, as ALA can transport mercury in the body into the brain. So any ME/CFS patient trying ALA might want to start with cautious low doses first, eg 20 mg, and then if that is OK, consider proceeding to higher doses.
 
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JES

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ALA causes me hypoglycemia and resveratrol as a strong antioxidant seems to weaken my immune system, resulting in 24/7 flu-like symptoms. I'm afraid there isn't one supplement that works for most of us, but ALA is probably something I would take without that side effect.
 

Learner1

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Alpha lipoic acid is part of a network of antioxidants that work together. Megadosing on one is not a good idea, and may, in fact be dangerous. ALA is special as it can recycle both fat soluble (like vitamin E) and water soluble (like vitamin C) antioxidants.

It also can pull heavy metals, like arsenic, lead, and mercury out of mitochondria, where they've been sequestered. If this happens, and you don't have the other detox nutrients available, you may experience symptoms of . acute toxicity, like headache, fatigue, intestinsl discomfort.

It also can deplete biotin, so if you supplement with ALA, it's wise to supplement with biotin.

I don't have lactic acid problems but have found resveratrol and ALA to be helpful.
 

msf

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I don't really understand those people that say that they don't have lactic acid problems - does that mean that you can jog for 5 minutes without feeling heavy legged, like a normal person can? If so, do you have PEM?

Re ALA, yes both it and Resveratrol (as well as DCA) can cause hypoglycemia, but for me it was transient, and in any case could be treated with a couple of spoonfuls of honey etc. I think hypoglycemia means that it is actually having an effect, but obviously that doesn't mean that you shouldn't try to avoid this.

I didn't know about the heavy metals, but notice my title was not why aren't you using this but why aren't you giving it a go. If even 5% of people had the very strong positive reaction I had, it would still be worth everyone trying it.
 

msf

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Alpha lipoic acid is part of a network of antioxidants that work together. Megadosing on one is not a good idea, and may, in fact be dangerous. ALA is special as it can recycle both fat soluble (like vitamin E) and water soluble (like vitamin C) antioxidants.

It also can pull heavy metals, like arsenic, lead, and mercury out of mitochondria, where they've been sequestered. If this happens, and you don't have the other detox nutrients available, you may experience symptoms of . acute toxicity, like headache, fatigue, intestinsl discomfort.

It also can deplete biotin, so if you supplement with ALA, it's wise to supplement with biotin.

I don't have lactic acid problems but have found resveratrol and ALA to be helpful.
I did mention I was taking other antioxidants, Resveratrol being one of course!
 

sb4

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I'll wiegh in and say that whilst I got a nice boost from B1 early on, I didn't notice any real difference with ALA/DCA/Resveratrol. I definitely have lactic acid problems. I don't get PEM but lactic acid instantly builds up in my muscles upon even minor tasks.
 

Wishful

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I don't really understand those people that say that they don't have lactic acid problems - does that mean that you can jog for 5 minutes without feeling heavy legged, like a normal person can? If so, do you have PEM?
Well, not jogging, because I've always been terrible at running, and avoid it. A 6-hr hike or bike ride (in hilly terrain) is no problem, and may not even trigger PEM. A few minutes of unusual physical activity, such as washing windows or climbing ladders, does trigger PEM. I don't seem to have the limitations on my muscles that are common to ME. That's why I believe that those muscle issues are a common secondary symptom, rather than a necessary part of ME.

@sb4 , I too got a bit of a boost from B1 the first few times I tried it, but then it stopped having a noticeable effect. I don't know if that was due to the ME effect (things work once only) or if I was a bit deficient in B1 at that time.
 

sb4

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@Wishful I think in my case it was some sort of a deficiency of B1. In the months leading up to my rapid decline I have changed my diet to include lots of white rice, and sugar as well as other B1 lacking foods. Carbs need more B1. I don't think this is what caused my rapid decline but it certainly couldn't have helped. I noticed a very significant reduction in my post meal heart symptoms which is a fairly reliable indicator as they are like clockwork for me. Unfortunately it leveled off soon after.

I tested myself for B1 using transketolase test about 3months or so after supplementing (I stopped for a month) and my B1 came back fine. My B2 was deficient however. I think that I managed to correct the deficiency and thats why I leveled off and why further massive doses of alithiamine didn't provide further benefit.
 

Learner1

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I don't really understand those people that say that they don't have lactic acid problems - does that mean that you can jog for 5 minutes without feeling heavy legged, like a normal person can? If so, do you have PEM?
I have had it measured on multiple 9ccasions and have bottom of range normal pyruvate and lactate.

However, though I can exercise - weight lifting, yoga, slow walking, I cannot tolerate 1 minute of intense/aerobic anything. It does me in fast. I run out of ATP and get dizzy. A brief nap helps.

And, yes, I get PEM after exercise or mental stimulation. However, I have learned I can avoid or reverse PEM if I preload with liposomal glutathione and follow with r-glutathione and BCAAs.
 

Wishful

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@sb4 , I can't remember the timing of when I noticed B1 helping, but I did live on mostly white rice for a period of 6 months or so, and another period of mainly cornstarch. So yes, I was probably deficient at one or more points. I hadn't considered the connection before.

@Learner1 , I can manage intense physical activities without problem. It's probably just one of those variations of ME. Maybe someday they'll show that 'if you have ME and have this specific genetic variant, you'll have limited ATP production'.
 

Learner1

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I can manage intense physical activities without problem. It's probably just one of those variations of ME. Maybe someday they'll show that 'if you have ME and have this specific genetic variant, you'll have limited ATP production'.
Wow, I am jealous! I do have some genetics, but also antibodies causing it, I believe.

Do you get PEM?

Can anyone else handle intense exercise? (Like 60 seconds of jumping jacks or body weight squats)?
 

msf

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I'm not great at biochemistry, but the reporting of no lactate problems but not being able to do 1 minute of intense exercise doesn't make much sense to me. Surely the problem is that your body is going into anaerobic respiration much sooner than a normal persons body, so surely lactic acid is created at above normal levels? I too can walk all day, as this does not seem to push my body into anaerobic respiration, yet even just jogging does so.
 

Learner1

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I can't walk all day. I hit a wall and Myer muscles don't work any more.

As for lactic acid, according to Webb's and Livestrong, "Lactic acid, a waste product of the conversion of glycogen into energy, accumulates when your body experiences oxygen depletion."

I HBOT 3 days a week to combat hypoxia. And I take NAD+ which feeds the Cori cycle, so NAD+ and NADH convert back and forth.

They also recommend exercising more to increase the lactic acid threshold and drinking adequate water. I have exercised to some degree 5-7 days a week since this illness began, even though I was sleeping 16 hours days and totally brain fogged.