Which probiotic?

[outdamnspot]

I'll be finishing up a rather hell-ish course of Flagyl and Ampicillin in about a week. The gastro who prescribed them offers an 8-week one-size-fits-all 'IBS program', with mutaflor, leaky gut supplements etc., but I can't afford them and it also isn't designed for the long-term, so I was just going to self-administer the probiotics that might help.

My bioscreen results showed undetectable lacto and bifido strains.

The three probiotics I have at home (which I haven't tried) are: *'Multibiotic' http://www.nps.org.au/medicines/dig...reptococcus-thermophilus/multibiotic-capsules,

*Miyarisan

*Primal Defense

Would one of these be suitable? Is there anything else I should look into?

 

[outdamnspot]

Also, my E.Coli levels were actually reasonable (about 0.3% lower than they should be).

 

[Daffodil]

you should look at the bacterial strains that are in multaflor and see if the ones you have at home have similar ones maybe?

can you ask your GI doctor?

 

[actup]

@outdamnspot, I've had excellent results with Miyarisan after antibiotic regimens and continue to use it at lower dosage as my only probiotic for maintenance. I do not really understand why it works so well. I suspect from my limited research that it displaces the bad players allowing the good ones to thrive. Here is the clostridium butyricum or Miyarisan thread:

http://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?threads/clostridium-butyricum-a-game-changer.37324/

 

[Richard7]

One idea might be to look at what the antibiotics are killing and make sure you replace that.

I would also suggest that you look at https://cfsremission.com/ which has a lot of info on probiotics.

I am about to go on a regime of antibiotics to deal with b hominis and my plan is to take probiotics while on the antibiotics. As I understand it the evidence for the wisdom is mixed, but the two extremes are "it is a good idea" and "it makes no difference".

The idea and evidence for it being a good idea, where it works, is in keeping the gut acidic so that pathogens do not find it a suitable environment and that it reduces antibiotic induced diarrhoea.

I think the probiotics you have seem good. I would be slightly concerned about the miyarisan as ken of CFS remission notes that it works against e coli. With the others I would suggest culturing them as soy or milk yoghurts so you can get good doses 100 billions to trillions per cup. Of course you could also use sauerkraut or some other lactofermented food.

As I understand it bifidobacterium longum is seem as something of a keystone species so I would make sure I got that. (Its in the primal defense but not the multibiotic).

I have been having some issues with anxiety (understatement) so I have been using L casei shirota (yakult) which has been shown to reduce anxiety in CFS and http://www.iherb.com/Life-Extension-Florassist-Mood-60-Capsules/68441 which is meant to have a similar effect on those with out and http://www.iherb.com/Wakunaga-Kyolic-Kyo-Dophilus-9-90-Capsules/3954 because it seemed a nice mix.

I am lucky as I have managed to afford a heated yoghurt maker that I can set at 38+/-2C so I know it is at the right temperature for all the bacteria, though I do not know how their ratios change between the pill and the yoghurt. But you could also use a thermos or an esky filled with 40C water there are lots of good techniques.

 

[Richard7]

re permeability you may want to have a look at this

Its a nice talk that is well footnoted, each diagram showing the full citation for the relevant journal articles. In it there is quite a long list of things that make paracellular permeability (leaky gut) better or worse that comes from this paper https://www.researchgate.net/public...tional_Keys_for_Intestinal_Barrier_Modulation

I should add that the in one of the in vitro studies of chilli powder showed that it increased permeability but that adding black pepper cancelled out that effect. (on average it slighty increased permeability for a bit then slightly reduced it ) Nutmeg and bay leaf were also showed to reduce permeability but the mechanism was unknown.

From that list I am taking green tea (EGCG) rutin (which is the form in which querticin is found in citrus fruits, buckwheat, capers and other foods) tumeric (instead of curcumin) zinc and food that provides plenty of fibre which should help produce SCFAs.

I will also take glutamine when I have dealt with the b hominis, it seems to make things worse at the moment (as does NAC). I am trying/aiming to do a sort of anti permeability anti inflammatory anti oxidant regime so will also be taking maes' supplements.

(I also take NAG (as part of HIPs anti anxiety cocktail) which is meant to improve mucosal layer which might help with leaky gut too.)

To the extent that I understand it the bacterial effects on permeability are a bit uncertain. There is evidence for some strains of L plantarum, e coli (stam nissle 1917, symbioflor2), Bifidobacterium infantis (align) and VSL#3 and so on helping reduce permeability or helping with IBD etc. (some of the research is in virto some in vivo (animals and humans) But only the commercial strains are tested so we do not know if the l plantarum in sauerkraut (for example) will help or not.

 

[outdamnspot]

@outdamnspot, I've had excellent results with Miyarisan after antibiotic regimens and continue to use it at lower dosage as my only probiotic for maintenance. I do not really understand why it works so well. I suspect from my limited research that it displaces the bad players allowing the good ones to thrive. Here is the clostridium butyricum or Miyarisan thread:

http://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?threads/clostridium-butyricum-a-game-changer.37324/

Can I ask what specific benefits you see from Miyarisan?

 

[outdamnspot]

One idea might be to look at what the antibiotics are killing and make sure you replace that.

I would also suggest that you look at https://cfsremission.com/ which has a lot of info on probiotics.

I am about to go on a regime of antibiotics to deal with b hominis and my plan is to take probiotics while on the antibiotics. As I understand it the evidence for the wisdom is mixed, but the two extremes are "it is a good idea" and "it makes no difference".

The idea and evidence for it being a good idea, where it works, is in keeping the gut acidic so that pathogens do not find it a suitable environment and that it reduces antibiotic induced diarrhoea.

I think the probiotics you have seem good. I would be slightly concerned about the miyarisan as ken of CFS remission notes that it works against e coli. With the others I would suggest culturing them as soy or milk yoghurts so you can get good doses 100 billions to trillions per cup. Of course you could also use sauerkraut or some other lactofermented food.

As I understand it bifidobacterium longum is seem as something of a keystone species so I would make sure I got that. (Its in the primal defense but not the multibiotic).

I have been having some issues with anxiety (understatement) so I have been using L casei shirota (yakult) which has been shown to reduce anxiety in CFS and http://www.iherb.com/Life-Extension-Florassist-Mood-60-Capsules/68441 which is meant to have a similar effect on those with out and http://www.iherb.com/Wakunaga-Kyolic-Kyo-Dophilus-9-90-Capsules/3954 because it seemed a nice mix.

I am lucky as I have managed to afford a heated yoghurt maker that I can set at 38+/-2C so I know it is at the right temperature for all the bacteria, though I do not know how their ratios change between the pill and the yoghurt. But you could also use a thermos or an esky filled with 40C water there are lots of good techniques.

I checked Ken's site and it looked like he suggested that Miyarisan could interfere with E.Coli probiotics -- so as long as I'm not taking them simultaneously, should it be okay?

Also, I know patients with CFS have to avoid certain probiotics. The Primal Defense came highly recommended by a friend (he actually sent me a bottle), but it seems quite broad-spectrum, so is there anything in there that might actually make me worse?

 

[Richard7]

Ok, @outdamnspot really good question.

When I looked at them earlier I was only looking for things I would want and completely forgot about looking for things I do not want.

I did that when I was searching for probiotics in October but it slipped out of my head when responding to your post.

Sorry about that.

If you have the time I suggest that you take each species and search for info on it on ken's site. Acidophilus which is in the primal defense and multibiotic is apparently a problem. it increases TNF alpha which increases cell turnover and makes leaky gut worse.

It may also be worth looking at this https://cfsremission.com/2016/11/20/ideal-lactobacillus-probiotics-for-cfs/ which recommends kyodophilus 9 strain I am using.

Ken's main aim is colonisation, he wants bacteria which will stick around, but crowding out the bad after antibiotics is also meant to be a good idea so I will suggest l casei shirota (yakult) if you can make it as a yoghurt, because it is cheap and (when made as a yoghurt) and is an l lactate producer and has been well researched and seems pretty good.

The easiest thing is probably just to email him and see what he thinks.

 

[TigerLilea]

you should look at the bacterial strains that are in multaflor and see if the ones you have at home have similar ones maybe?

can you ask your GI doctor?

Mutaflor is a single strain probiotic. It is e-coli strain Nissle 1917.

 

[outdamnspot]

Ok, @outdamnspot really good question.

When I looked at them earlier I was only looking for things I would want and completely forgot about looking for things I do not want.

I did that when I was searching for probiotics in October but it slipped out of my head when responding to your post.

Sorry about that.

If you have the time I suggest that you take each species and search for info on it on ken's site. Acidophilus which is in the primal defense and multibiotic is apparently a problem. it increases TNF alpha which increases cell turnover and makes leaky gut worse.

It may also be worth looking at this https://cfsremission.com/2016/11/20/ideal-lactobacillus-probiotics-for-cfs/ which recommends kyodophilus 9 strain I am using.

Ken's main aim is colonisation, he wants bacteria which will stick around, but crowding out the bad after antibiotics is also meant to be a good idea so I will suggest l casei shirota (yakult) if you can make it as a yoghurt, because it is cheap and (when made as a yoghurt) and is an l lactate producer and has been well researched and seems pretty good.

The easiest thing is probably just to email him and see what he thinks.

I emailed him and am waiting for a response.

What do you think about AOR 3? http://au.iherb.com/Advanced-Orthom...atural-Probiotic-Formula-90-Veggie-Caps/43463

I may start with the Miyarisan, since people here seem to have the most success with it, and I've also read it eats lactic acid (which I believe is a problem for me).

 

[outdamnspot]

On the microbiome subreddit, someone recommended a combination of Reuteri Pearls, plus culturelle , plus align, plus Bimuno, which has helped his CFS. But how do we know if these contain lactic-acid producing strains?

 

[outdamnspot]

This is pricey, but looks good: http://www.customprobiotics.com/d-lactate-free-probiotics.html

 

[Richard7]

https://cfsremission.com/2015/10/10...advanced-orthomolecular-research-probiotic-3/

 

[outdamnspot]

Yeah, Ken covers the Acidophilus issue here: https://cfsremission.com/2013/09/14/probiotics-lack-lactobacillus-acidophilus/

It's really frustrating trying to wrap my head around all of this (especially with the cognitive dysfunction being caused by the depression, CFS etc. and which the anbiotics are making significantly worse). I just don't know which probiotics I should be looking at combining.

What I can gather is that L. Reuteri is fundamental for B12 production. Ken mentions this: http://au.iherb.com/Nature-s-Way-Pr...VFFeROOxCnZKy6iOop2uN6cXyaSO5zaD1lhoCM0Dw_wcB But it also contains acidophilus. Otherwise, it can be found here http://au.iherb.com/Jarrow-Formulas-Women-s-Fem-Dophilus-30-Capsules-Ice/7917

This is an expensive probiotic, but it looks good too and doesn't contain acidophilus: http://www.customprobiotics.com/d-lactate-free-probiotics.html but it's also lacking the L. Reuteri.

Ken seems to be fond of Prescript Assist too: http://www.prescript-assist.com/products/ but I don't really understand what those strains actually are?

The AOR#3 looks good, but contains Lactose, which is a problem for me.

VSL#3 contains Acidophilus.

 

[Richard7]

@outdamnspot

If I could afford it I would probably have gone for the bifido maximus https://cfsremission.com/2015/11/08...ine-free-and-d-lactate-free-probiotic-review/ and biolactis (l casei shirota as a powder) but I cannot so I am using a mixture of the kyolic 9 strain and life extensions mood and yakult cultured as a yoghurt. (which does not taste like a yoghurt, but I mix it with matcha or cocoa and that makes it ok).

I understand from listening to grace liu https://thegutinstitute.com/ (who designed the bifido maximus with custom probiotics) that to establish the bifidos you need much large doses 100s of billions. As I cannot afford to do that with the probiotic capsules I have been culturing them on soy.

Unlike you I am low in e coli so I also use symbioflor 2 made up as a soy drinking yoghurt which tastes pretty good, but I still tend to add the matcha.

The symbioflor 2 and mutaflor doses in research are quite a bit smaller than the ones I am using, but my ecoli was undetectable and I know that Dr Myhill recommends culturing mutaflor on soy or some other protein containing milk or milk alternative.

I have also got some l. ruteri protectis. I am in OZ so I bought the Blackmore's version (made under license from BioGaia) of it but if you are in the states or europe you could get the BioGaia version. Its not available on iHerb but you can get it from amazon.

I understand that you do not need a lot of it. Somewhere in my reading (probably on Ken's site) I found that a tablet every second day was as effective as a tablet every day.

re clostridium butyricum I would just get the miyarisan if that is ok. It has a good reputation. Indeed I will probably do that eventually but I am concerned about my low e coli.

I know that ken finds prescript assist and equilibrium useful, and I am interested in trying to get my head around his suggested pathway. But at the moment I am just dealing with the b hominis, and will look at the others if I need to once this infection is dealt with.

 

[outdamnspot]

@outdamnspot

If I could afford it I would probably have gone for the bifido maximus https://cfsremission.com/2015/11/08...ine-free-and-d-lactate-free-probiotic-review/ and biolactis (l casei shirota as a powder) but I cannot so I am using a mixture of the kyolic 9 strain and life extensions mood and yakult cultured as a yoghurt. (which does not taste like a yoghurt, but I mix it with matcha or cocoa and that makes it ok).

I understand from listening to grace liu https://thegutinstitute.com/ (who designed the bifido maximus with custom probiotics) that to establish the bifidos you need much large doses 100s of billions. As I cannot afford to do that with the probiotic capsules I have been culturing them on soy.

Unlike you I am low in e coli so I also use symbioflor 2 made up as a soy drinking yoghurt which tastes pretty good, but I still tend to add the matcha.

The symbioflor 2 and mutaflor doses in research are quite a bit smaller than the ones I am using, but my ecoli was undetectable and I know that Dr Myhill recommends culturing mutaflor on soy or some other protein containing milk or milk alternative.

I have also got some l. ruteri protectis. I am in OZ so I bought the Blackmore's version (made under license from BioGaia) of it but if you are in the states or europe you could get the BioGaia version. Its not available on iHerb but you can get it from amazon.

I understand that you do not need a lot of it. Somewhere in my reading (probably on Ken's site) I found that a tablet every second day was as effective as a tablet every day.

re clostridium butyricum I would just get the miyarisan if that is ok. It has a good reputation. Indeed I will probably do that eventually but I am concerned about my low e coli.

I know that ken finds prescript assist and equilibrium useful, and I am interested in trying to get my head around his suggested pathway. But at the moment I am just dealing with the b hominis, and will look at the others if I need to once this infection is dealt with.

Okay, thanks for your help. The Bifido Maximus is expensive, but I have a little bit of extra money at the moment, so will give it a shot. I'm in Australia, so will pick up the Blackmore's ruteri as well, and start with those two. Where do you get your symbioflor 2, by the way?

 

[Richard7]

I bought it from a german pharmacy I found on ebay. It was not cheap (most of the price was the transport) but I am in the country and getting mutaflor sent to me in a refrigerated parcel would have costed more.

 

[renski]

Another prebiotic alternative to bimuno, https://happyoligo.com/en

 

[renski]

On the microbiome subreddit, someone recommended a combination of Reuteri Pearls, plus culturelle , plus align, plus Bimuno, which has helped his CFS. But how do we know if these contain lactic-acid producing strains?

Reuteri, culturelle, align are all lactic acid producing.. all of the lactobacillus/bifidobacterium are lactic acid probiotics. Bimuno is a prebiotic..