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What causes spontaneous bruising?

Messages
98
I've been having some significant spontaneous bruising lately and am wondering why this is happening. I've had some of this in the past, but it's been much worse lately. I saw something online about adrenal insufficiency and bruising, but I've had adrenal issues for many years with the CFS so it doesn't explain why the bruising has gotten so much worse.
 

alex3619

Senior Member
Messages
13,810
Location
Logan, Queensland, Australia
What is your vitamin C status? Low vitamin C can cause this. I get spontaneous bruising all the time, in one place only: the tops of my feet. I am still not sure of the cause. Bye, Alex
 

taniaaust1

Senior Member
Messages
13,054
Location
Sth Australia
I have a thought on this but havent researched it to see if i do have a good understanding on it or are right.

Vasculitis . I know some of those historic ME cases of ME outbreaks do mention their being vasculitis as being one of the symptoms of the disease. I dont even know if vasculitis causes bruising or not but it sounds logical it would seeing it damages blood vessels.

Ive assumed that may be why I have a mark on my foot and ankle top which looks like a bruise but it never goes away. One specialist told me it was a bruise which may take a year to go away.
 

nanonug

Senior Member
Messages
1,709
Location
Virginia, USA
Vitamin K deficiency.

Yep, with Vitamin K being a fat soluble vitamin dependent on healthy gut flora, this is higher up as a reason. I would also like to add that (among a few other things) MTHFR polymorphisms are associated with easy (not spontaneous ) bruising.
 

rlc

Senior Member
Messages
822
Hi CBS64, if this symptom is suddenly getting worse I would recommend starting with getting it investigated as a sign of a possible different condition, rather than attributing it to CFS, symptoms of excessive bruising can be found in a lot of conditions some of which are very serious. The 146 diseases that can cause these kind of symptoms are listed here http://en.diagnosispro.com/differen...ive-easy-bruising-tendency/37909-154-170.html

I would recommend getting a doctor to investigate it just in case something new is happening, its also possible that you have had one of these conditions for a long time and the bruising increasing is a late sigh of its progression. But defiantly get it checked out by a competent doctor. They can also test for vitamin K deficiency.

I do know someone who ignored this kind of symptom for a long time and they are now in serious trouble due to the diagnosis being delayed

Hope you find the answer soon.

All the best
 

Athene

ihateticks.me
Messages
1,143
Location
Italy
I have had awful problems with spontaneous bruising - the severity of it has fluctuated over the years. There are lots of possible causes, like rlc said.
I have mentioned it to varius doctors and they all patronisingly told me I had obviously bumped myself and then forgotten about it - bruises cannot come up by themselves! Yeah right, I bashed the palm of my hand hard enough to make a 2 inch wide bruise then it slipped my memory? And how exactly do you bump yourself between your toes? Sorry this is turning to a rant, but I have had so many years of major frustration over this.

It is one of the top ten symptoms of thyroid deficiency and I would definitely get your thyroid levels tested. Apparently thyroid issues often develop after you have had adrenal problems for a long time, so that would fit your case. (You need to check T3 and T4 not only TSH, becuse the normal relationship between these different hormones often seems to break down in CFS).
I recently got diagnosed with a thyroid deficiency which I am convinced I have had, waxing and waning in severity, for many years. I was getting lots of spontaneous bruises before starting treatment for this and they have all cleared up now. They were not only coming themselves, they were also staying for AGES - like, still bright blue with no yellow for a full 6 weeks, which is definitely not normal. I don't know if that is another aspect of the thyroid thing, or something else.

Also vitamin K is important, as has already been mentioned. The other one is Vitamin C, like Alex said. For me it only works if I take both. I don't get an improvement if I am not taking enough, especially the C.
Have you got any old scars? If you are white, they should be exactly the same colour as your skin - any pinkness at all means you don't have enough vitamin C. I don't know how this test would work if you have dark skin - but I know any red means the connective tissue in the scar is breaking down due to lack of C to regenerate it, so maybe it is easy to check on dark skin too.
 
Messages
98
Yep, with Vitamin K being a fat soluble vitamin dependent on healthy gut flora, this is higher up as a reason. I would also like to add that (among a few other things) MTHFR polymorphisms are associated with easy (not spontaneous ) bruising.

I just got a gene test back which showed that I have a double variation in the MTHFR gene, so maybe this is part of the reason. ALthough I'm not sure why it's flaring up now. I eat tons of foods with vitamin K (Kale, collards, spinach, green beans) so I'm guessing that my levels are okay, but it's worth asking the doctor about this. I also take 500 to 1000mg of vitamin C a day, so I think I'm getting enough of that. I also take thyroid medicine and recently tested okay for thyroid, so that base is covered.

I recently did a trial of LDN for a few weeks and had to stop it because it was depressing my adrenal function. So maybe the bruising has something to do with that.
 

Athene

ihateticks.me
Messages
1,143
Location
Italy
I just got a gene test back which showed that I have a double variation in the MTHFR gene, so maybe this is part of the reason. ALthough I'm not sure why it's flaring up now. I eat tons of foods with vitamin K (Kale, collards, spinach, green beans) so I'm guessing that my levels are okay, but it's worth asking the doctor about this. I also take 500 to 1000mg of vitamin C a day, so I think I'm getting enough of that. I also take thyroid medicine and recently tested okay for thyroid, so that base is covered.

I recently did a trial of LDN for a few weeks and had to stop it because it was depressing my adrenal function. So maybe the bruising has something to do with that.

The info on the MTHFR polymorphisms is interesting - based on various supplements that make me feel worse not better, Richvank and Freddd have both suggested I probably have this situation.

If you want to try to get your adrenal function improved as fast as poss, you need to avoid chocolate (very adrenal suppressive) and you could take a high dose of vit B5 and increase Vitamin C. The Adrenal Function book by Wilson says you need 2000mg daily as a bare minimum and can go up to 5000, or more if your tummy is OK. The amount of adrenal hormones you produce are in direct proportion to the amount of vitamin C they have.
 

adreno

PR activist
Messages
4,841
I would throw away Wilson's book, as everything in it is pure nonsense.

Yes, your adrenal glands needs some vitamin C to function, but increasing vitamin C intake will not increase cortisol output. In fact, it will likely lower it.
 

Athene

ihateticks.me
Messages
1,143
Location
Italy
I would throw away Wilson's book, as everything in it is pure nonsense.

Yes, your adrenal glands needs some vitamin C to function, but increasing vitamin C intake will not increase cortisol output. In fact, it will likely lower it.

Have you got any prooof at all that raising vitamin C intake will lower cortisol production?

My cortisol always measured way below the bottom of the normal range in blood tests for several years. After 9 months of following Wilson's book to the letter, it rose to the top of the range and has stayed there.
I think if there were any arguments against Wilson's treatment, they would be presented somewhere on the Internet. But all you find is support, like Dr. Lam's website which advocates the same therapy, and goes into more detail explaining the science behind it.
 

adreno

PR activist
Messages
4,841
Have you got any prooof at all that raising vitamin C intake will lower cortisol production?

My cortisol always measured way below the bottom of the normal range in blood tests for several years. After 9 months of following Wilson's book to the letter, it rose to the top of the range and has stayed there.
I think if there were any arguments against Wilson's treatment, they would be presented somewhere on the Internet. But all you find is support, like Dr. Lam's website which advocates the same therapy, and goes into more detail explaining the science behind it.

Lots of studies have shown that vitamin C attenuate the release of cortisol in response to stress. You can read an article about it here:

http://m.psychologytoday.com/articles/200304/vitamin-c-stress-buster

If you are taking adrenal extracts, as Wilson suggests, you are supplementing cortisol, and that will put you in the high range.

I wouldn't say that only support of Wilson's claims can be found; in fact there isn't a shred of evidence anywhere to support his hypothesis of adrenal fatigue.
 

Crux

Senior Member
Messages
1,441
Location
USA
Although I've had more incidences of spontaneous bleeding than bruising, I think maybe they're related to weakened tissues. So, I'll discuss what has helped the most...

B12 and Folate helped very much. The bleeding time slowed and I bumped myself less.

Zinc is also helping, my skin is becoming stronger. I can only suspect that I may have had too much copper from low zinc, because of some symptoms that have decreased since beginning zinc. ( many times I have taken it without paying attention). Although these symptoms can have many causes, mine have been relieved by taking zinc without copper for 6wks., 30mgs. daily. The symptoms of too high copper vs too low zinc may be : a variety of bleeding problems, insomnia, anxiety, irritability, constipation, racing thoughts, and fatigue. Again, these symptoms may have numerous causes, but in my case, this form of zinc therapy has truly helped.

Yesterday, I dropped the zinc amount to 15 mgs. daily. I'm looking to find a long term dosage. I realize I need it daily because lesser amounts didn't work, but too much can upset the balance I'm aiming for.
 

Sparrow

Senior Member
Messages
691
Location
Canada
I have very easy bruising (from things like resting one leg on the other, or incidental touches rather than any kind of actual hit or injury), but I don't think it's spontaneous. Definitely an issue for me, though. Not sure why. According to Yasko's approach, less sulfur should help. That may or may not have helped reduce it for me (can't say for certain, since it seemed to fluctuate a bit on its own). I've been trying other supplements supposed to help with bruising and capillary integrity too, but none has been entirely successful.

The other possible culprit that hasn't been mentioned yet is too much blood thinning. Many herbs and other supplements have a mild blood thinning action (fish oil, vit E, ginkgo, tons of other herbs, etc.). I'm hoping this doesn't turn out to be the problem for me, since I really don't want to give up the things that have made my life more bearable.
 

Athene

ihateticks.me
Messages
1,143
Location
Italy
Lots of studies have shown that vitamin C attenuate the release of cortisol in response to stress. You can read an article about it here:

http://m.psychologytoday.com/articles/200304/vitamin-c-stress-buster

If you are taking adrenal extracts, as Wilson suggests, you are supplementing cortisol, and that will put you in the high range.

I wouldn't say that only support of Wilson's claims can be found; in fact there isn't a shred of evidence anywhere to support his hypothesis of adrenal fatigue.

Of course I am not taking any adrenal axtracts, just the nutrients that Wilson recommends: He doesn't advise taking adrenal extracts except as a last resort.

The article you cited doesn't cite any actual studies, it just says "A study found", rather vaguely. (Perhaps because it's written by psychologists - so far everything I have ever read or heard said by a psychologist was garbage!!!)

Anyway, I found a scientific paper published by the NIH from the US national library of medicine reporting on the effects of vitamin C infusion upon endogenous cortisol production.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7772741

The article says:
Results obtained are as follows: 1) the practice of the steroid-free vitamin C infusion treatment induced a) distinct depletion of both cortisol and vitamin C from the circulation at the initial to moderate stages of the experiment, b) a small surge of plasma cortisol at the middle stage, and c) skyrocket-like rises of ACTH and cortisol of plasma at the terminal stage.

So I think this means that we are both right, except that what I am doing is remaining in the terminal "skyrocket" stage by taking vitamin C continuously. Well, my blood tests are showing that result, so that must be the case.

And here's the Dr Lam website which gathers a lot of the scientific research on the whole Adrenal fatigue issue:
http://www.drlam.com/
 

adreno

PR activist
Messages
4,841
Of course I am not taking any adrenal axtracts, just the nutrients that Wilson recommends: He doesn't advise taking adrenal extracts except as a last resort.

The article you cited doesn't cite any actual studies, it just says "A study found", rather vaguely. (Perhaps because it's written by psychologists - so far everything I have ever read or heard said by a psychologist was garbage!!!)

Anyway, I found a scientific paper published by the NIH from the US national library of medicine reporting on the effects of vitamin C infusion upon endogenous cortisol production.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7772741

The article says:
Results obtained are as follows: 1) the practice of the steroid-free vitamin C infusion treatment induced a) distinct depletion of both cortisol and vitamin C from the circulation at the initial to moderate stages of the experiment, b) a small surge of plasma cortisol at the middle stage, and c) skyrocket-like rises of ACTH and cortisol of plasma at the terminal stage.

So I think this means that we are both right, except that what I am doing is remaining in the terminal "skyrocket" stage by taking vitamin C continuously. Well, my blood tests are showing that result, so that must be the case.

And here's the Dr Lam website which gathers a lot of the scientific research on the whole Adrenal fatigue issue:
http://www.drlam.com/

Right, here's an article with references, for you:

http://www.nutritionalreviews.org/vitamin-c

And "Dr" Lam is a quack. Most of his "articles" are copy/pastes from wikipedia, without giving reference.
 

Athene

ihateticks.me
Messages
1,143
Location
Italy
I think we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one. I have done the Wilson protocol and it did for me exactly what he said it would.

Your article says vitamin C
"May reduce cortisol levels
Appears to reduce cortisol levels" - they don't sound very convinced themselves, and it goes on to say all their the tests were done by giving vitamin C to people after exercise. That doesn't apply to me. I never exercise. I hardly even walk.

In the past I've finished up in cardiac wards four times now, with acute respiratory and cardiac crises as a direct result of low cortisol, and now I am fine. So I'm sticking with Wilson's advice because it has worked for me.

Why are you so passionately against what Wilson and the NIH claim about vitamin C and cortisol? Have you tried this therapy? Have you tried anything to modify your cortisol levels?
 

adreno

PR activist
Messages
4,841
I think we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one. I have done the Wilson protocol and it did for me exactly what he said it would.

Your article says vitamin C
"May reduce cortisol levels
Appears to reduce cortisol levels" - they don't sound very convinced themselves, and it goes on to say all their the tests were done by giving vitamin C to people after exercise. That doesn't apply to me. I never exercise. I hardly even walk.

In the past I've finished up in cardiac wards four times now, with acute respiratory and cardiac crises as a direct result of low cortisol, and now I am fine. So I'm sticking with Wilson's advice because it has worked for me.

Why are you so passionately against what Wilson and the NIH claim about vitamin C and cortisol? Have you tried this therapy? Have you tried anything to modify your cortisol levels?

I have expressed my view of adrenal fatigue in this thread, among others:

http://forums.phoenixrising.me/showthread.php?p=255146
 

Athene

ihateticks.me
Messages
1,143
Location
Italy
I am sorry that you got bad results and became ill from taking adrenal extracts, and I hope you have got over the effects of that now.
But please don't blame Wilson's book for that bad experience, because that is NOT what he recommends doing. His book says take the nutrients; if that is not enough, add in some herbs; and if that is still not enough, resort to adrenal extracts. If you followed his advice in reverse order, I don't think you can blame him that you didn't get the results he promised.