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Vitamin C worsening symptoms (sodium ascorbate)

dannybex

Senior Member
Messages
3,564
Location
Seattle
Yes, all are definitely issues -- including salicylate and histamine intolerance -- although I'm gonna try concentrating on h. pylori. I tested negative for it 10 years ago or so, but have had hypochloridia (sp) almost ever since I got sick, and have learned that it can burrow in the gut, leading to false negatives. I'll run it by the doc and see who salutes.
 

dannybex

Senior Member
Messages
3,564
Location
Seattle
And I can confirm that I definitely have an oxalate issue. Suspected off and on for years, but definitely confirmed.
 

Violeta

Senior Member
Messages
2,949
That's my issue, very, very low tolerance.

I've been dealing with diarrhea for probably 8 months now. Stool tests come back negative, etc., etc.. It might be a little bit better in the last few days, but that's happened off and on during the 8 months only to return. In the meantime I've basically got subclinical, if not clinical scurvy, which of course the doctors deny -- even the classic corkscrew hairs -- which I've had for probably six or seven years now.

Have you tried phosphorus for the scurvy? If the vitamin c bothers you, maybe the phosphorus would take care of it. Here's a list of symptoms related to phosphorus (either deficiency or excess, which is why there are extremely opposite symptoms).
http://www.homeoint.org/books/boericmm/p/phos.htm
 

Aerose91

Senior Member
Messages
1,401
Another option- mast cell activation. I kept having trouble with vit c and for years couldn't figure out why until I found out that most vit c I produced from peanut hulls or similar sources. I switched to camu camu powder and I don't have any of those issues anymore. Maybe food for thought
 

pamojja

Senior Member
Messages
2,398
Location
Austria
Artificial Vit C is a no go.

Wish to elaborate? Usually sensitivities are very individual.

In my personal case only experienced health-benefits from supplementing 24 g/d of pure ascorbic acid for the last 11 years.

Like remission from a walking-disabilty from PAD (in concert with all other nutrients recommended by Linus Pauling), right away from starting ascorbic acid it healed a for 2 years persisting skin-rush on my back, and for me it beats any prescribtion antihistamine against my severe seasonal rhinitis symptoms, without any side-effects.
 

pamojja

Senior Member
Messages
2,398
Location
Austria
Vit c seems to cause issues with ceruloplasmin but when copper is an issue

What kind of issues?

In my case having bottom low zinc despite gradually increasing didn't bring it up. Because after years of approaching already 50 mg/d of zinc supplementation, I thought it might be a good idea to take at least a mg of copper for balance. That was a big mistake, though it took years again, but thereby copper at one point shoot up above normal. Still not optimal, though in the normal range since many years after stopping any copper and continue to titrate zinc. Ceruloplasmin I only had twice the oppotunity to get it tested, and on both occasions were normal.
 

keenly

Senior Member
Messages
816
Location
UK
Wish to elaborate? Usually sensitivities are very individual.

In my personal case only experienced health-benefits from supplementing 24 g/d of pure ascorbic acid for the last 11 years.

Like remission from a walking-disabilty from PAD (in concert with all other nutrients recommended by Linus Pauling), right away from starting ascorbic acid it healed a for 2 years persisting skin-rush on my back, and for me it beats any prescribtion antihistamine against my severe seasonal rhinitis symptoms, without any side-effects.

Many reasons. Vitamin C fruits and veggies are designed to be used in high UV light environments, think about that.
 

pamojja

Senior Member
Messages
2,398
Location
Austria
Many reasons. Vitamin C fruits and veggies are designed to be used in high UV light environments, think about that.

Also humans. Therefore not surprising that since supplementing high-dose ascorbic acid I didn't experienced any sun-burn anymore. And that by always taking my yearly vacations in the deepest winter to a South Indian beach, each day right after the first for 4 hours in bathing suit for whole body-exposure.

A deep-dive into the science of ascorbic acid and radiation: https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/electromagnetic-radiation-quantum-decoherence-vitamin-doris-loh/
https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/vitamin-c-mitochondria-part-1-redox-5g-world-doris-loh/

It's kind of funny. I asked why ascorbic acid would be a no go? - You gave 2 unsupported reasons only, for which high-dose actually showed unequivocally beneficial to me. First ceruloplasmin, now UV.

Then, beside those 2 reasons to take more ascorbic acid - and individual sensitivity the only not to - what are the many more reasons? Keep them coming!

You have to understand that after experiencing so many and only benefits for so many years, theoretical thought-out draw-backs doesn't has any appeal.
 
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Violeta

Senior Member
Messages
2,949
That's my issue, very, very low tolerance.

I've been dealing with diarrhea for probably 8 months now. Stool tests come back negative, etc., etc.. It might be a little bit better in the last few days, but that's happened off and on during the 8 months only to return. In the meantime I've basically got subclinical, if not clinical scurvy, which of course the doctors deny -- even the classic corkscrew hairs -- which I've had for probably six or seven years now.

Danny, have you seen this blogpost by Chandler Marrs about thiamine deficiency possibly causing oxalate issues. I wonder if this could cause ascorbic acid to go down the wrong path to such an extent that one gets scurvy. Maybe you already take thiamine, if so, let me know if it made any difference or not. I just started a week ago, I am seeing some improvement, am getting my hopes up.
Here's the article.
https://www.hormonesmatter.com/marginally-insufficient-thiamine-intake-oxalates/
 

Frunobulax

Senior Member
Messages
142
Have you tried phosphorus for the scurvy? If the vitamin c bothers you, maybe the phosphorus would take care of it. Here's a list of symptoms related to phosphorus (either deficiency or excess, which is why there are extremely opposite symptoms).
http://www.homeoint.org/books/boericmm/p/phos.htm

Scurvy is an interesting issue. We know populations like the Inuit or Masai that would eat plants only if they were literally starving, so they had little vitamin C intake. Yet none of them had scurvy.

IMO the only valid explaination is that something in our western diet uses up vitamin C and other antioxidants (vitamin D and gluthathion are usually low for us, too), and I'd put my money on inflammation due to metabolic syndrome and antioxidants. The sailors that got scurvy would eat bread, so (lectin-rich) plant-based food might be to blame.

Thus, a very anti-inflammatory diet that has little or no plant-based antinutrients (possibly carnivore, with added omega-3 fatty acids) might help. Have you tried that @dannybex? I'm almost carnivore now and I do feel better, even though it has taken a while.
 

pamojja

Senior Member
Messages
2,398
Location
Austria
Scurvy is an interesting issue. We know populations like the Inuit or Masai that would eat plants only if they were literally starving, so they had little vitamin C intake. Yet none of them had scurvy.

For example Inuit do have a genetic mutation that allows them a ketogenic diet without ketosis. Maybe there is some similiar variation at play. As it is even with guinea pigs, like humans not able to produce endogenous vitamin C. From Linus Pauling's 1986 book about bio-chemical individuality:

103 HOW TO LIVE LONGER AND FEEL BETTER

Chapter 10

Biochemical Individuality

The genetic mutation that deleted the capacity to manufacture vitamin C in the primate line presents one vivid example of the countless genetic variations from which natural selection produced the diversity of biological organisms we know in the world today. Such biochemical insight permits us to see evolution, as it were, from the inside. It gives a quantitative measure of the wealth of differences among individuals within a single species upon which natural selection acts in choosing the "fittest." It shows each of us human beings to possess a biochemical individuality that is scarcely expressed in (but only partly accounts for) the differences we observe in one another.

Let us consider some genetic characteristic, such as the weight of the liver relative to the total weight of the human being or the concentration of a certain enzyme in the red cells of the blood. It is found that, when a sample of a hundred human beings is studied, this characteristic varies over a wide range. The variation often is approximately that given by the standard, bell-shaped probability function. It is customary to say that the "normal" range of values of the characteristic is that range within which 95 percent of the values lie and that the remaining 5 percent of the values, representing the extremes, are abnormal. If we assume that five hundred characteristics are independently inherited, then we can calculate that there is only a small chance, 3 percent, that one person in the whole population of the world would be normal with respect to each of these five hundred characteristics.

It is estimated, however, that a human being has a complement of one hundred thousand genes, each of which serves some function, such as controlling the synthesis of an enzyme. The number of characteristics that can be variable, because of a difference in the nature of a particular gene, is presumably somewhere near one hundred thousand rather than only five hundred: and accordingly we reach the conclusion that no single human being on earth is normal (within the range that includes 95 percent of all human beings) with respect to all characteristics. This calculation is, of course, oversimplified. It helps emphasize, however, that human beings differ from one another and that each human being must be treated as an individual, biologically as well as morally.

The species Homo sapiens is more heterogeneous, with respect to genetic character, than most other animal species. Nevertheless, heterogeneity has been found also for laboratory animals such as guinea pigs. It was recognized long ago that guinea pigs fed the same scurvy-producing diet, containing less than 5 milligrams (mg) of ascorbic acid per day per kilogram of body weight, differed in the severity of the scurvy that they developed and in the rapidity with which they developed it. A striking experiment was carried out in 1967 by Williams and Deason. These investigators obtained some male weanling guinea pigs from an animal dealer. After a week of observation during which the guinea pigs were on a good diet, including fresh vegetables, they were placed on a diet free of ascorbic acid or with known amounts added. They were divided into eight groups, each of ten to fifteen guinea pies, with one of the groups receiving no ascorbic acid and the other groups receiving varying amounts through a pipette into the mouth. About 8O percent of the animals receiving no ascorbic acid or only 0.5 mg per kilogram per day developed signs of scurvy, whereas only about 25 percent of those receiving between 1 mg and 4 mg per kilogram per day, and none of those receiving 8 mg per day or more, developed these signs. These results agree with the customary statement that about 5 mg per kilogram per day of ascorbic acid is required to prevent scurvy in guinea pigs.

It was observed, however, on the one hand, that two animals receiving only 1 mg per kilogram per day remained healthy and gained weight over the entire period of the experiment (eight weeks). One of them showed a total gain in weight larger than that for any animal receiving two, four, eight, or sixteen times as much ascorbic acid.

On the other hand, seven of the guinea pigs receiving 8, 16, or 32 mg per kilogram per day were unhealthy and showed very small growth during the first ten days on the diet. They were then provided with a larger amount of the vitamin, five of them with 64 mg per kilogram per day and two of them with 128 mg per kilogram per day. These animals showed a remarkable response: whereas they had grown only 12 grams (g), on the average, in a period of ten days on the smaller amounts of ascorbic acid, their growth during the ten-day period after beginning to receive the larger amounts was, on the average, 72 g. The indicated conclusion is that these animals, seven of the thirty that were given between 8 mg and 32 mg per kilogram per day, required more vitamin C for good health than the others. Williams and Deason (1967) reached the conclusion that there is at least a twentyfold range in the vitamin-C needs of individual guinea pigs in a population of a hundred. They pointed out that the population of human beings is presumably not more uniform than that of the guinea pigs used in their experiments and that accordingly the individual variation in the vitamin-C needs of humans is probably just as great.
 

renski

Senior Member
Messages
338
Location
Honolulu
What kind of issues?

In my case having bottom low zinc despite gradually increasing didn't bring it up. Because after years of approaching already 50 mg/d of zinc supplementation, I thought it might be a good idea to take at least a mg of copper for balance. That was a big mistake, though it took years again, but thereby copper at one point shoot up above normal. Still not optimal, though in the normal range since many years after stopping any copper and continue to titrate zinc. Ceruloplasmin I only had twice the oppotunity to get it tested, and on both occasions were normal.

Do you have gut issues? I do and my body rejects the zinc, if you can't get your zinc levels up with supplementation then something else is causing it to be low.

From what I've read high levels of ascorbic acid inhibits ceruloplasmin, whether that is theory or fact who knows..
 

pamojja

Senior Member
Messages
2,398
Location
Austria
Do you have gut issues? I do and my body rejects the zinc, if you can't get your zinc levels up with supplementation then something else is causing it to be low.

From what I've read high levels of ascorbic acid inhibits ceruloplasmin, whether that is theory or fact who knows..

No gut issues. Tested ceruloplasmin twice, at 26 and 27. 15-30 mg/dl normal range.
 

Mick

Senior Member
Messages
138
Hello,

Does anyone experience worsening fatigue and other symptoms from vitamin c supplementation? I started taking around 1500 mg in May, and I've been having really bad fatigue all summer. I've continued to take it because I find it hard to believe it's the vitamin c. I have low-normal blood pressure so it's not due to the sodium. I suspect I have autoimmunity, so I wonder if it's stimulated my immune system too much?

I did/do. But it's not about oxalates or any other things that are described in this thread.
It's about vit. C making your immune system more aggresive.
So, if you are already inflamed because of allergy or something else then vit. C will make it worse. Sometimes much worse. Especially a dose like 1500 mg - is a suicide.

For me it was two factors (both of them reduced/elminated): food intolerances due to leaky gut (eliminated most of them by healing the gut) and gout (allopurinol finally helped after I also took care of other things).

Before taking care of all those things I couldn't even tell if allopurinol is working or not - I was always in pain and inflamed, no matter what; finally, when I took care of everything, many things became clear.

But it's been not a bed of roses since then - I get PEM after 3 hours of light exercise. The progress here is that this PEM used to last for weeks, now it lasts one day. And maybe I will keep improving - it's been only two weeks since I took care of all of this, so I am still tweaking things. I'm getting rid of the inflammation; the more I get rid of it, the better I get, and the better I get the more inflammation I can get rid of - if that makes sense.
 

linusbert

Senior Member
Messages
1,169
What kind of issues?

In my case having bottom low zinc despite gradually increasing didn't bring it up. Because after years of approaching already 50 mg/d of zinc supplementation, I thought it might be a good idea to take at least a mg of copper for balance. That was a big mistake, though it took years again, but thereby copper at one point shoot up above normal. Still not optimal, though in the normal range since many years after stopping any copper and continue to titrate zinc. Ceruloplasmin I only had twice the oppotunity to get it tested, and on both occasions were normal.

my ceruloplasmin is deficient low as is copper. didnt take zink, and also not that much vitamin c.. like 500mg every other day.

Vit c seems to cause issues with ceruloplasmin but when copper is an issue

i'd like to hear more.
for me too less copper is the issue.


It's about vit. C making your immune system more aggresive.
some VC i tolerate, some makes me worse. never know whats the actual problem.
i never get problems from real fruits like kiwi. so its not just the vitamin C.
my G6PD is also too low.

couldnt vitamin D fix the aggression issue? a aggressive immune system must not be wrong , when it targets the right enemies. just a idea.