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Vitamin C & adrenals

outdamnspot

Senior Member
Messages
924
I was reading about people with severe 'adrenal fatigue' who can't tolerate nervous system relaxants or things that lower cortisol, due to worsened fatigue, OI, hypoglycemia etc. I'm at that point, and have to avoid seemingly benign supplements like Magnesium, or sleep aids like benzos etc.

This makes it difficult to control inflammation. Certain probiotics/herbs help to an extent, but need to keep being rotated.

I have had very mixed success taking time-release Vitamin C (2-3g) before bed. It helps induce sleep, but seems to induce some (subjective) low-cortisol symptoms such as nausea, decreased appetite and depression. The pay-off, when it works, is increased energy the next day, increased stress tolerance, and a reduction in crashes.

However, yesterday, I ended up in a severe crash and could barely get out of bed. It scared me. I was also experiencing severe anxiety, paranoia, depression.

I've wondered if it's possible that Vitamin C itself could induce a crash in those who are sensitive (and maybe those initial benefits from supplementation have developed tolerance), or if it might relate to something else; I have read Vitamin C is implicated in copper detox. I don't know how valid that theory is, but I noticed the day I felt particularly bad my stools were rust/orange-colored, which I have also read is related to copper elimination.

The other thing is I have been using a different brand -- Natural Factors (which contains Bioflavonoids and Hesperidine Extract), instead of Source Naturals (which only contains Rosehip) and wasn't sure if that could relate somehow as well.
 
Messages
366
I don't tolerate vitamin C well, especially in high doses. I'm also speculating a bit why, the copper issue could be one reason. I'm not even sure though, how copper and vitamin C interact. Usually you read vitamin C helps detox copper and I read somewhere that synthetic vitamin C is bad because it removes copper from ceruloplasmin? Which could lead to higher copper and less bound/bioavailable copper. So too low copper could be bad and more unbound copper, too.

Also, vitamin C increases conversion from dopamine to norepineprhine. Norepinephrine is a stress-neurotransmitter and stimulates the sympathetic nervous system. So that could also be an issue. Some supplements give me more energy because they increase my stress-transmitters, but after a while I get worse.


I've wondered if it's possible that Vitamin C itself could induce a crash in those who are sensitive
So yeah, I would at least say, it might be possible. If you want to continue vitamin C, I would keep monitoring carefully, how you react and maybe lower the dose.
 

outdamnspot

Senior Member
Messages
924
I don't tolerate vitamin C well, especially in high doses. I'm also speculating a bit why, the copper issue could be one reason. I'm not even sure though, how copper and vitamin C interact. Usually you read vitamin C helps detox copper and I read somewhere that synthetic vitamin C is bad because it removes copper from ceruloplasmin? Which could lead to higher copper and less bound/bioavailable copper. So too low copper could be bad and more unbound copper, too.

Also, vitamin C increases conversion from dopamine to norepineprhine. Norepinephrine is a stress-neurotransmitter and stimulates the sympathetic nervous system. So that could also be an issue. Some supplements give me more energy because they increase my stress-transmitters, but after a while I get worse.



So yeah, I would at least say, it might be possible. If you want to continue vitamin C, I would keep monitoring carefully, how you react and maybe lower the dose.

Thanks for the reply. The energy I get from Vitamin C is 'stressful' energy, but it's better than nothing .. I'll try cut back the dose tonight and if that doesn't work, accept it just isn't helpful for now.
 

ljimbo423

Senior Member
Messages
4,705
Location
United States, New Hampshire
Hi outdamnspot - It could be die off. Dr Sarah Myhill uses vitamin c to sterilize the upper gut-

  • Sterilise the upper gut - the key here is to take something which kills bugs in the upper gut but does not upset bacteria in the lower gut. Bacteria and yeast are greedy for micronutrients, especially minerals. Indeed, this may explain why some patients worsen when they take micronutrients - these simply feed the upper gut flora so they ferment harder. Ways to tackle this:
  1. Take high dose ascorbic acid or magnesium ascorbate between and during meals. The acid and the ascorbate both kill microbes. In the right dose they can sterilise the upper gut. If very high doses of vitamin C are taken it will spill over into the large bowel and cause diarrhoea - this is called taking vitamin C to bowel tolerance and is useful in getting rid of gut infections in a gastroenteritis.

A lower dose might help.

http://www.drmyhill.co.uk/wiki/Fermentation_in_the_gut_and_CFS

Jim
 
Messages
366
Glutathione or alpha lipoic acid can both regenerate oxidized vitamin C.
I was thinking that if you notice a difference from high vitamin C-doses, maybe low glutathione or alpha lipoic acid status could be a problem. That might the worsen recycling of vitamin C in the body.

Because the usual daily requirement of vitamin C is around 200-300mg, so if you get an effect from gram doses, that you don't get from 200-300mg, maybe the recycling is bad.

There are actually mutations in the GST (glutathione S-transferase) that are associated with lower vitamin C status.

I take low-dose vitamin B2,B3 and magnesium and they can support glutathione status. (Vitamin D can also increase glutathione but I don't know how well I tolerate that). I also take sublingual hydroxocobalamin, which supports methylation and might increase alpha lipoic acid.

I tolerate these supplements well, but I don't know wether all of them would be helpful for you (if you haven't tried them yet anyway). It seems there are individual differences on how well you tolerate a supplement.
I also wrote a text on glutathione in the blog section, in case you're interested.
 

Hugo

Senior Member
Messages
230
Glutathione or alpha lipoic acid can both regenerate oxidized vitamin C.
I was thinking that if you notice a difference from high vitamin C-doses, maybe low glutathione or alpha lipoic acid status could be a problem. That might the worsen recycling of vitamin C in the body.

Because the usual daily requirement of vitamin C is around 200-300mg, so if you get an effect from gram doses, that you don't get from 200-300mg, maybe the recycling is bad.

There are actually mutations in the GST (glutathione S-transferase) that are associated with lower vitamin C status.

I take low-dose vitamin B2,B3 and magnesium and they can support glutathione status. (Vitamin D can also increase glutathione but I don't know how well I tolerate that). I also take sublingual hydroxocobalamin, which supports methylation and might increase alpha lipoic acid.

I tolerate these supplements well, but I don't know wether all of them would be helpful for you (if you haven't tried them yet anyway). It seems there are individual differences on how well you tolerate a supplement.
I also wrote a text on glutathione in the blog section, in case you're interested.

Im curious of what kind of what kind of sublingual hydroxo you use? I also would like to try that (its not as common as methyl or cyano)
 

PatJ

Forum Support Assistant
Messages
5,288
Location
Canada
The energy I get from Vitamin C is 'stressful' energy, but it's better than nothing

It's not better than nothing if the energy comes from taxing your adrenals and causing you to crash. If you look on Dr. Lam's web site he has a lot of info on adrenals and how certain supplements can put stress on them and should be avoided initially. A lower dose of vitamin c should be more gentle on your body. (Note that Dr. Lam is somewhat controversial due to the issues around the idea of 'adrenal fatigue' but he has a lot of interesting and useful information on his site.)

Liposomal vitamin c helped me to feel noticeably better over the course of 6-12 months.
 
Messages
366
Im curious of what kind of what kind of sublingual hydroxo you use? I also would like to try that (its not as common as methyl or cyano)

I'm taking hydroxocobalamin from AOR.

If you find another one, I'd just be careful that there's no vitamin C in it. There are some studies that say that vitamin C can interfere with vitamin B12. I took one that had ascorbylpalmitate added for a while and I think the effect might have been less.
 

Hugo

Senior Member
Messages
230
Liposomal vitamin c helped me to feel noticeably better over the course of 6-12 months.

Im doing that aswell (liposomal c) and I been a lot better, but cant be sure its because of liposomal c since Im taking several supplements and medicins. Do you mean it caused a possible adrenal fatigue later on?
 

PatJ

Forum Support Assistant
Messages
5,288
Location
Canada
Do you mean it caused a possible adrenal fatigue later on?

I think my adrenals were fatigued or screwed up due to HPA axis problems before I used liposomal vitamin c. After roughly 12 months I switched over to regular vitamin c and haven't noticed becoming any worse... although it was a slow improvement so maybe I wouldn't notice a slow decline. Hmm. Maybe I should try some liposomal c for a while to see how I feel.
 

Hugo

Senior Member
Messages
230
I think my adrenals were fatigued or screwed up due to HPA axis problems before I used liposomal vitamin c. After roughly 12 months I switched over to regular vitamin c and haven't noticed becoming any worse... although it was a slow improvement so maybe I wouldn't notice a slow decline. Hmm. Maybe I should try some liposomal c for a while to see how I feel.

Yes I understand that, but I meant if it worsened the adrenal fatigue. Good to know it didnt and that it may have made you better.

Did Lam thought liposomal C was a good supplement?

Ive read about a doctor in Denmark (his rather controversial there) who uses high doses of IV C-vitamin in cancertreatment. I dont think he is exluding other kind of treatments though. The oral supplement cant reach nearly as high plasma level of vitamin C. If thats good or bad can be up for debate ofcourse. But maybe liposomal can reach higher plasma level aswell.
http://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-...ers/alternative-cancer-treatment/faq-20057968
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1405876/
 
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ebethc

Senior Member
Messages
1,901
Glutathione or alpha lipoic acid can both regenerate oxidized vitamin C.
I was thinking that if you notice a difference from high vitamin C-doses, maybe low glutathione or alpha lipoic acid status could be a problem. That might the worsen recycling of vitamin C in the body.
 
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PatJ

Forum Support Assistant
Messages
5,288
Location
Canada
Did Lam thought liposomal C was a good supplement?

I don't remember. He has so much information on his site, and much of what I read goes into my memory and then gets lost in a fog. If I don't try something soon after I read about it then I'll forget about it.
 

outdamnspot

Senior Member
Messages
924
@ljimbo423 that's interesting, my stools when I take the Vit C do look similar to those that I get when I take other herbs that create die-off

@PatJ I have a whole box of Liposomal C at home. I tried it for a week but became very foggy and depressed. I believe it's because liposomal supplements are bound to lecithin and I'm overly sensitive to choline.
 

ljimbo423

Senior Member
Messages
4,705
Location
United States, New Hampshire
I have a whole box of Liposomal C at home. I tried it for a week but became very foggy and depressed. I believe it's because liposomal supplements are bound to lecithin and I'm overly sensitive to choline.

I have the same problem with choline, lecithin, phosphatidylcholine etc. It makes me feel very foggy headed and depressed also. Another puzzle I haven't figured out yet and may never.;) One possibility is that my acetylcholine levels are already too high for some reason but who knows!o_O

Jim
 

ebethc

Senior Member
Messages
1,901
I have the same problem with choline, lecithin, phosphatidylcholine etc. It makes me feel very foggy headed and depressed also. Another puzzle I haven't figured out yet and may never.;) One possibility is that my acetylcholine levels are already too high for some reason but who knows!o_O

Jim
 
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outdamnspot

Senior Member
Messages
924
I have the same problem with choline, lecithin, phosphatidylcholine etc. It makes me feel very foggy headed and depressed also. Another puzzle I haven't figured out yet and may never.;) One possibility is that my acetylcholine levels are already too high for some reason but who knows!o_O

Jim

Choline antagonizes dopamine, as far as I'm aware. I've always suffered from 'hypodopaminergic' symptoms, so presumed choline just made the situation worse