Two retroviruses...or even more?

[Eric Johnson from I&I]

Well, my main criticism of focusing on Tahoe/Incline is that it is the 54th of 63 epidemics compiled and listed chronologically by Hyde. So examining Tahoe may be illustrative, but a focus on Tahoe only is far, very far from closing the deal on any of these questions.

Hyde's book is US$50 including shipping if you want it, direct from him -- not exactly highway robbery... thats a steal for a specialized 700 page book that I would suspect hasnt sold nearly 10,000 copies... a book is cheaper per copy if you can sell say 100,000.

 

[fresh_eyes]

Hey George, really sorry about your dog. That's so hard. I'm sure she had a great life with you, though.

I'll hit you with more epidemiological questions later, but wanted to say that for now.

 

[jackie]

Hi Guys! Probably veering a bit off-topic!...but for some interesting reading...is anyone familiar with Dr. Chia's Enteroviruses? (as far as Tahoe - think common denominator:water...NOT necessarily water SUPPLY!)

He's been quietly working away on this stuff for over ten years and I recently found his EV MED RESEARCH website. Lots of virus info (not retro though). BTW he's also my doc.

(I guess I should have put this in thread for, well...viruses! But I don't know how much activity is happening on that thread. If I'm in the wrong place - just ignore me, please!)

George...so sorry about your "girl". I've been through this myself quite a few times and I understand the trauma and heartbreak involved. I'll be thinking of you. (my dogs are truly my best friends!)

jackie (back to the burnout bench)

 

[George]

Well, my main criticism of focusing on Tahoe/Incline is that it is the 54th of 63 epidemics compiled and listed chronologically by Hyde. So examining Tahoe may be illustrative, but a focus on Tahoe only is far, very far from closing the deal on any of these questions.

Hyde's book is US$50 including shipping if you want it, direct from him -- not exactly highway robbery... thats a steal for a specialized 700 page book that I would suspect hasnt sold nearly 10,000 copies... a book is cheaper per copy if you can sell say 100,000.

Hey Eric
I agree that Incline Village is nothing special in the long line of outbreaks. I used it because it is well known. Dr. Hyde's book is excellent. We were just bouncing around a possible senerio for Zoonosis of the XMRV virus. My biggest argument is that like HIV the virus made the jump at least a century ago.

I think it's natural for people to assume that it started in the 70's or 80's because that is when they heard of it. The human mind tends to date things from when we learn of something.

Like you I've been looking at the past possible cases. I tend to think that some of the earlier cases will be dismissed. (Of course I could be wrong and that's totally cool) A lot of different diseases tend to claim the same writings. I put the first true cases around 1920 to 1930.

I say this because the big "change" in mice could be due to deliberate inbreeding by C. Cook Little at Harvard. I can't remember the exact date but between 1910 and 1915 he bred sets of mice to 99% identicality. Those mice where then sold to medical schools and research facilities in the US and England for sure I don't think what eventually became Johnson Laboratories began selling to Europe until after the war.

A lot of the experiments involved feeding the mice things like mercury or arsenic and then cutting them open to observe the changes in the organs. I think that would have provided a perfect opportunity for the XMRV zoonosis to happen. Blood of inbred mice would have easily infected researchers and med school students in the 20's and 30's and built up in the population (depending on sexual habits of the area, person and time) until a secondary trigger came along and exposed those with say a genetic defect and high level of stress. Many of the early outbreaks were associated with hospitals.

Of course this is all speculation and theory and none of it can be backed up with science.

 

[George]

Hi Guys! Probably veering a bit off-topic!...but for some interesting reading...is anyone familiar with Dr. Chia's Enteroviruses? (as far as Tahoe - think common denominator:water...NOT necessarily water SUPPLY!)

He's been quietly working away on this stuff for over ten years and I recently found his EV MED RESEARCH website. Lots of virus info (not retro though). BTW he's also my doc.

(I guess I should have put this in thread for, well...viruses! But I don't know how much activity is happening on that thread. If I'm in the wrong place - just ignore me, please!)

George...so sorry about your "girl". I've been through this myself quite a few times and I understand the trauma and heartbreak involved. I'll be thinking of you. (my dogs are truly my best friends!)

jackie (back to the burnout bench)

Thanks Jackie and Fresh Eyes. Yeah I bounce between wanting to be distracted to just wanting to sit and think about her. Life just sucks right now but I know I'll deal. She's my 6th baby to bury in the last 26 years. You think you get use to it but you never do.

 

[Samuel]

Staff?

A lot of the experiments involved feeding the mice things like mercury or arsenic and then cutting them open to observe the changes in the organs. I think that would have provided a perfect opportunity for the XMRV zoonosis to happen. Blood of inbred mice would have easily infected researchers and med school students in the 20's and 30's and built up in the population (depending on sexual habits of the area, person and time) until a secondary trigger came along and exposed those with say a genetic defect and high level of stress. Many of the early outbreaks were associated with hospitals.

Of course this is all speculation and theory and none of it can be backed up with science.

I vaguely recall that at least one hospital outbreak involved the staff (not sure which staff) primarily, and at least one other involved the nurses primarily.

I vaguely recall that denialists had a field day with that, claiming that if it wasn't everybody, then it can't be infectious.

But what if it is sexual + trigger?

 

[starryeyes]

I'm sure you've all seen this but thought I'd post it just in case:

http://www.supportme.co.uk/mecfsguide/history1.htm



George -- sorry you had to put your best girl dog to sleep. That's really sad. You'll be greeted by lots of wagging tails when you go over the Rainbow Bridge. ((((Hugs)))) tee

 

[Eric Johnson from I&I]

Thank you very much. I hadnt been aware that post-exertional malaise was described in neurasthenia. I'm not certain whether that symptom exists today in MS, lupus, or what have you -- a very interesting question especially if that symptom was found in neurasthenia.

With Darwin, it is even harder to rule out some other cause of his disease, because of his tropical world travels in which he could have encountered a plethora of infections.

I think I'll spare myself a reading of Wessely's review lest I get all raged out. But I wonder if he isnt considering CFS to be neurasthenia, and taking it for granted that neurasthenia was nonsense (or at least highly psychogenic, foolish, and rather reversible with "psychotherapy"), as seems to have been the eventual verdict in, I dont know, the 1920s or perhaps some other decade. (This contrasts somewhat with Beard's view that the disease was psychogenic but not necessarily easily reversible, and created great suffering regardless of the cause.)

Quite interesting is the history of neurasthenia being dismissed as nonsense, in a contemptuous and non-testable para-scientific fashion, very similarly to what the case is with CFS -- this is a significant "symptom" of CFS probably being conspecific with neurasthenia.