TUDCA Metformin connection

[godlovesatrier]

I just found this really interesting study and thought I'd flag it for others.

https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.05.26.116715v2.full
"these findings reveal that metformin remodels the gut microbiota, reduces oxidative stress and enhances insulin sensitivity by increasing the production of TUDCA"

and of course metformin is used to reduce long covid risk:
https://www.thelancet.com/journals/laninf/article/PIIS1473-3099(23)00299-2/fulltext
"Outpatient treatment with metformin reduced long COVID incidence by about 41%, with an absolute reduction of 4·1%, compared with placebo. "

So I am thinking maybe tudca is an alternative to metformin and if the insulin response is the primary issue with long covid - which I've read in many other articles that it is, maybe it would protect against it.

Also TUDCA reduces OS, enhances insulin sensitivity and remodels the gut microbiota...everything metformin does.

Thoughts? @mariovitali

 

[mariovitali]

@godlovesatrier Basically, the system I have been developing aims to find compounds that appear to be highly relevant given to the various symptoms of ME/CFS. TUDCA was a highly ranked compound as it appears to be applicable to a number of issues found in a multisystemic syndrome such as ME/CFS. So yes, TUDCA has a number of mechanisms of action such as the ones you mention and also the assistance of protein folding which reduces ER Stress.

 

[Wishful]

these findings reveal that metformin remodels the gut microbiota,

Doesn't that apply to almost everything we eat? I expect that the microbiome will be different after a greasy burger than after a fruit salad or a bran muffin. Using that phrase makes me think they're planning to sell it as a product.

 

[godlovesatrier]

Wishful to give more info when it says remodels it means lowers the firmicutes to bacteroides ratio (so it is healthy, not high in firmiutes not high in bacteroides, both of which cause health issues.) There are also a few other groups of bacteria it remodels and according to the studies tudca increases butyrate. So no eating a burger wouldn't do this, eating burgers regularly will actually increase bacteroides as they love fat and red meat, lower butyrate and lower firmicutes. Whereas eating a lot of legumes will increase butyrate production and firmicutes due to the effect they have on butyrate producers like r bromii and f prausnitzii.

@mariovitali I find this overlap with metformin extremely interesting. Didn't want to post on your main thread as I didn't want to go off topic. But the ability for tudca to seemingly copy metformins effects seems amazing.

Also I did very well taking andrographis paniculata for year, it is known as "The king of bitters" in india and elsewhere. It increase bile acid directly, but also causes some unplesant hunger pains + dehydration and other unpleasant sides. Remains to be seen if the tudca does. But as there are so many metabolic groupings figuring out which one you fit into isn't easy.

Tudca really does seem a bit overlooked, but glad it's reasonably cheap and cheerful, hope it works for others.

 

[Rufous McKinney]

everything metformin does

my chinese herbalist warned me to AVOID metformin.

It would not be good for my digestive system, I was informed.

My herbalist is usually right. He is highly trained and understands my inbalances better than I do.

Now I"m worried about TUDCA. Now I feel perhaps I should confer with him about this.

 

[godlovesatrier]

The studies for the microbiome are a bit confusing. They seem to suggest tudca kills a variety of bacteria whilst others are bile acid resistant. Although studies show it achieves homeostasis where firmicutes to bacteroides ratio is concerned. That's not a bad thing tbh with you.

But I'm going to trust my 16s scores a lot more than anything else I think. It'll be interesting to see if firmicutes go down while I'm on tudca. There almost at the halfway mark right now so they shouldn't worsen.

As I say I have good history with bitters. So I reckon I'll be ok. My saliva has definitely changed it tastes slightly more acidic...hard to describe. I doubt it's a huge change but that taste is noticeable enough.

I also found out tonight it has possible rdrp inhibitor properties and ebv and hsv1 appear to hijack ER stress for replication purposes. So there would be appear to be multiple secondary actions for tudca. The studies aren't amazing tho but they might be accurate.

 

[Rufous McKinney]

But I'm going to trust my 16s scores a lot more than anything else I think.

apologies I didn't mean my comments to suggest your on the wrong track, for you or others

I was trying to avoid Type 2 and ending up on Metformin by taking chinese herbs. My blood sugar right now is hopefully Ok-ish I hope.

I was also trying to avoid going on high BP pills, that failed.

Now, I don't consume the chinese herbs all the time and every day, so that might contribute to my failure to get it under control just with herbs.

 

[godlovesatrier]

That's ok makes sense. Blood sugar for me has definitely got worse to control. My diets already heavily restricted due to oxalate. So yeah I hope it gets more under control for you.

 

[Wishful]

So no eating a burger wouldn't do this, eating burgers regularly will actually increase bacteroides as they love fat and red meat, lower butyrate and lower firmicutes.

That meets my definition of "remodeling". It might be unhealthy remodeling, but still remodeling. Eating a candy (sugar) will remodel the microbiome too, in unhealthy ways. I was objecting to the phrasing that might be taken as implying "permanently improving". Adding sugar to a meal will shift bacteria species one way, and metformin will shift it another way. How long does the effect of either last? That probably depends on a variety of factors including individual variance.

If you want to "remodel" your microbiome a certain way, is metformin the best option? I expect there are antibiotics that target the strains you want to reduce. There are probably a number of herbs that will do the same thing. The other effects of each of these options will vary. Looking at the wiki, I certainly wouldn't consider metformin as "perfectly safe", so it's not the obvious safest choice for microbiome remodeling.