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Tryptophan as an IBS gut treatment

Hip

Senior Member
Messages
17,857
A new study found that 65% of people attending an IBS clinic also have ME/CFS.

The study found too that 86% of IBS patients had extensive antibiotics as a child, and the study authors suggest the antibiotic depletion of Lactobacillus friendly bacteria may have set the scene for IBS.

I can attest to extensive childhood antibiotics (for chronic tonsillitis). Then I developed IBS at around 33 years old, and about 9 years after getting IBS, I came down with ME/CFS from a viral infection.



Antibiotic Depletion Of Lactobacillus Bacteria the Root of the Problem?

The study authors say there are several possibilities for how IBS may lead to symptoms outside the gastrointestinal tract, but that they would like to focus on the theory that antibiotic induced depletion of Lactobacillus friendly bacteria may promote overgrowth of other bacteria as well as Candida albicans within a biofilm in the small intestine — ie, promote small intestinal bacterial overgrowth (SIBO).

The authors say in planktonic form, Candida albicans is an innocent commensal organism of the mouth and the GI tract. However, planktonic yeast may turn to more virulent hyphal forms, particularly when forming biofilms, and when there is lack of Lactobacillus or a diverse anaerobic bacteria in the colon.

Hyphal forms of Candida are known to seriously modify the innate immunity, and impair intestinal barrier function enabling systemic dissemination of yeast. Thus, the authors suggest, a shortage of intestinal Lactobacillus may be a major cause of Candida-induced gastrointestinal inflammation and systemic symptoms in patients with IBS.



Could Tryptophan Help Replenish the Lactobacillus Bacteria?

The authors say that taking Lactobacillus probiotics seems like a logical approach, but say Lactobacillus probiotics do not colonize the human gut — and such probiotics may even kill the existing friendly bacteria in your gut. (Maybe this might explain why some ME/CFS patients feel worse on probiotics).

However, since most Lactobacilli require L-tryptophan for their growth, the authors suggest an alternative approach could be to stimulate the growth of the existing Lactobacillus in the gut by feeding them with tryptophan, or preferably tryptophan-rich bioactive peptides made from milk proteins.

Other researchers have shown that in mice, recovery of Lactobacillus populations, as well as suppression of Candida, is achieved by oral administration of tryptophan. So tryptophan might be a good food for increasing Lactobacillus population in the gut.
 
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Hip

Senior Member
Messages
17,857
Most IBS patients are told the fatigue is because of IBS. So most dont even know their fatigue could be due to ME/CFS.

There is some symptoms overlap with IBS and ME/CFS. But I wonder if anyone with IBS fatigue would satisfy the full ME/CFS diagnostic criteria of the strict CCC or ICC. In this study, the patients were diagnosed with ME/CFS by the strict ICC criteria.

I remember when I first developed IBS, fatigue and the sudden appearance of substantial anxiety were two symptoms which came with the IBS.

But there was a big difference between that IBS fatigue and the fully-fledged ME/CFS that I was hit with 9 years later after a viral infection.
 

Rufous McKinney

Senior Member
Messages
13,363
However, since most Lactobacilli require L-tryptophan for their growth, the authors suggest an alternative approach could be to stimulate the growth of the existing Lactobacillus in the gut by feeding them with tryptophan, or preferably tryptophan-rich bioactive peptides made from milk proteins.

What about Phair's metabolic trap hypothesis.....Feeding us tryptophan may be - contraindicated?
 

kangaSue

Senior Member
Messages
1,851
Location
Brisbane, Australia
However, since most Lactobacilli require L-tryptophan for their growth, the authors suggest an alternative approach could be to stimulate the growth of the existing Lactobacillus in the gut by feeding them with tryptophan, or preferably tryptophan-rich bioactive peptides made from milk proteins.
Any idea what the 'tryptophan-rich bioactive peptides' products are that they are talking about?

Another paper about IBS in general (not specific to ME/CFS) by the same lead author suggests serotonin levels to be low too and the addition of tryptophan may increase levels of serotonin and benign AhR ligands. That might also explain why low dose antidrepressant meds can go some way to improving symptoms in many cases of GI dysmotility.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4266036/
 

pattismith

Senior Member
Messages
3,941
Dr Oaklander thinks SFPN is the underlying pathology of IBS FIBRO and ME, and so do I.

I also think from my own experience that you don't need to have the skin paresthesia to have the SFN.

Sensory skin symptoms are involved when small fibers to the skin are affected, but I do believe that small fibers to any other organs (bowel/muscles/uterus/ovaries/glands…) can show up before showing up in the skin (I'm not alone thinking that).

https://www.boston25news.com/news/m...overy-about-fibromyalgia-and-ibs-1/648821719/
 

Hip

Senior Member
Messages
17,857
Any idea what the 'tryptophan-rich bioactive peptides' products are that they are talking about?

I am not really sure. Possibly they may just mean milk protein in general. This paper says milk proteins are particularly rich in tryptophan. The two proteins in milk are whey and casein, and you can buy both whey protein powder and casein protein powder.

I guess it might be easier just to take a tryptophan supplement.



But if hyphal forms of Candida are the problem, which the authors say can seriously affect the innate immune system, then a strategy which helps prevent regular Candida turning into its hyphal forum might be useful. There are a number of supplements which can decrease the hyphal form:

Gymnema slyvestre, conjugated linoleic acid, Dodonaea viscosa, Cascarilla bark oil, helichrysum oil, α-longipinene, linalool all inhibit hyphal Candida.

And alpha-pinene and Beta-pinene are also highly toxic to Candida. Juniper berry essential oil contains 29% α-pinene 18% β-pinene.
 

pattismith

Senior Member
Messages
3,941
Any idea how SFPN causes PEM?
it may be an autonomic cascade from excessive sensitivity of ASICs sensors to any minor pH variation (from minor lactic acidification or other).
ASICs are present in small nerve fibers coming from muscles and show hyperexcitability when these nerve fibers are damaged. But ASICs are also widespread in nervous cells in brain.
 
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Hip

Senior Member
Messages
17,857
I realized that I misread this paper: it is not saying that 65% of people with IBS later go on to develop ME/CFS; but rather that 65% of the IBS patients in their clinic also have ME/CFS.

So I am going to change the title of this thread to:

"Tryptophan as an IBS gut treatment".
 

Judee

Psalm 46:1-3
Messages
4,494
Location
Great Lakes
The only thing is that tryptophan triggered my IBS last year when I tried it after years of having the IBS almost completely under control. I talk about it in this post HERE.

In the post I included a link to an article from The Canadian Society of Intestinal research on IBS and Serotonin that I thought maybe might explain why I had the reaction. In the article they authors say,

“My colleagues and I have recently discovered that patients with IBS have a significant decrease in the serotonin transporter, or SERT, in the cells lining the bowel,” said Dr. Gershon. “That means some IBS patients have an inadequate SERT mechanism which causes serotonin to stay around longer, triggering troublesome bowel changes.”

My understanding is that tryptophan is a precursor to serotonin but I don't understand the complete mechanisms of it or exactly why it set my IBS off.

Anyway, just thought I'd add this in case someone has a bad reaction like I did.
 
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Wishful

Senior Member
Messages
5,739
Location
Alberta
What about Phair's metabolic trap hypothesis.....Feeding us tryptophan may be - contraindicated?

I don't know whether that theory is correct or not, but TRP definitely made my ME symptoms worse. I spent many years on a low-TRP diet just to avoid the increased symptom severity. As with any ME treatment that works--or is theorized to work--personal experimentation is necessary to see what effects it has on the individual.
 

raghav

Senior Member
Messages
809
Location
India
There is some symptoms overlap with IBS and ME/CFS. But I wonder if anyone with IBS fatigue would satisfy the full ME/CFS diagnostic criteria of the strict CCC or ICC. In this study, the patients were diagnosed with ME/CFS by the strict ICC criteria.

I remember when I first developed IBS, fatigue and the sudden appearance of substantial anxiety were two symptoms which came with the IBS.

But there was a big difference between that IBS fatigue and the fully-fledged ME/CFS that I was hit with 9 years later after a viral infection.

Here in India if your gastro diagnoses IBS (That is early stage before leaky gut fully sets in ) they send you to a psychiatrist. The Psychiatrist medicine helps to certain extent. Mainly Flupentixol 0.5 mg and usually an SNRI will be given to calm the HPA axis. But it reduces the urgency and rectal itching and mucous. But the main symptom of increased bowel frequency does not go away. If you panic you still have a sudden peristaltic wave.

After leaky gut fully sets in you start seeing the symptoms of ME. But by then most patients are exhausted and fed up with the symptoms and the medical system so they put up with it homebound or bedbound. Once you are handed over to a psychiatrist that is it. They dont know anything about ME. This has been my experience.
 

Hip

Senior Member
Messages
17,857
Once you are handed over to a psychiatrist that is it. They dont know anything about ME.

This what happens in many countries around the world, including the UK. Originally ME was viewed as a biologically-caused illness, but from around the 1980s onwards, the psychiatrists muscled into ME, and tried to convince everyone that ME was psychologically caused.
 

percyval577

nucleus caudatus et al
Messages
1,302
Location
Ik waak up
I have two experiences here:

Four years ago I had good effects from TRP for one week, then suddenly it turned awfully bad. Last year it behaved similar, though sooner.

One time I made the mistake to take TRP in conjunction with one VitB, I think B6 was it (and I remember that it even could be understood, probabaly converting TRP into SER), however... (and I have normally no gut symptoms)


Thank you for the interesting thread and the linkage to candida, very interesting.
 

kangaSue

Senior Member
Messages
1,851
Location
Brisbane, Australia
I believe Jarrow carry a product that uses them:
Good find, thank you.
Perhaps this ties in with Ron Davis assertion that simply taking tryptophan may make us sicker?
Maybe adding in a brassica-derived sulforaphane supplement will address that part of the equation. This is said to be the most potent naturally occurring biomolecule known at this time to stimulate Nrf2, a key regulator of the cellular antioxidant response. The science around the supplements is debatable, most are derived from broccoli sprouts.
I am not really sure. Possibly they may just mean milk protein in general. This paper says milk proteins are particularly rich in tryptophan. The two proteins in milk are whey and casein, and you can buy both whey protein powder and casein protein powder.
Personally, I don't tolerate whey or casein protein powder. Caseins are the major proteins in ruminant milk so bovine colostrum might be another option as it's a source of tryptophan, lactose free. Lactoferrin from colostrum is higher again in tryptophan.