Hi everybody:
(I just saw this subject has been treated in a previous thread; however I'd like to open these new one anyway, because I'd like to focus the debate on how Transcranial Electrical stimulation fits with the Naviaux's Dauer state theory)
I guess some of you must have already read the recently published Naviaux’s paper (https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1567724918301053?via=ihub#bb0325). I must say that it is one of the most brilliant texts that I’ve read in the past few years, way ahead of the current dogmas we still study in medicine. Of course the concept that ME/CFS might be a sort of “pathological state” from which theoretically a given temporary treatment could get us out from in a relatively short time is not new, this now more elaborated theory fits pretty well with some of the 'miraculous' transient improvements many PWCFS have experienced after taking an antibiotic, or with LDI, or with D-ribose (this happened to me!), etc. The same can be argued for the sudden onset of the illness many of us suffered.
Anyway, when he talks about the treatments trialed so far supporting his proposed approach, he of course mentions Suramin, but also the so called ‘low-intensity pulses using transcranial electrical stimulation (LIP-tES)’. I read the whole paper he quotes regarding this therapy (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/28925734), and I really wanted to run some thoughts/reflections by you on the possibility of getting some relief from this therapy.
In a nutshell, the paper describes how some electrical pulses applied to the scalp by means of several electrodes, show very significant improvements in a very short time in 6 patients with Mild traumatic brain injury. The mechanism of action proposed, is that these currents would potentiate the healing properties of the slow Delta waves. These slow waves should only occur in the deep phases of sleep, but it seems that in some disorders they might appear during wakefulness, maybe as a healing process of the body. Well, in theory this treatment would be potentiating these slow waves occurring naturally in patients with Mild traumatic brain injury, and this would explain the great improvements observed.
Naviaux explains in his paper how these deep cerebral waves would be an example of how to force some stuck cells out of the “Dauer” state, therefore achieving recovery. While this specific treatment would seem too localized into the neurons of the cerebral cortex, opposed to the systemic approach we might need for ME/CFS (something Suramin would achieve, in theory), the possible symptoms of the Mild traumatic brain injury drew my attention:
1) headaches; 2) feelings of dizziness; 3) nausea and/or vomiting; 4) noise sensitivity, easily upset by loud noise; 5) sleep disturbance; 6) fatigue, tiring more easily; 7) being irritable, easily angered; 8) feeling depressed or tearful; 9) feeling frustrated or impatient; 10) forgetfulness, poor memory; 11) poor concentration; 12) taking longer to think; 13) blurred vision; 14) light sensitivity, easily upset by brigh light; 15) double vision; and 16) restlessness
Well, I’m sure you can see my point! So, my first impulse has been to look for EEGs made in EM/CFS patients, and after a quick search, this is what I’ve found:
1- https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4734796/:
(…)The subjects were seated on a soft chair in a relaxed state, but were awake and concentrating. (…)These results indicate that there was a significant increase of the slow brain electrical activities in the right frontal area in CFS patients.(…)
2- https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2765956/:
(…)In persons with CFS, delta power was diminished during slow wave sleep, but elevated during both stage 1 and REM(…)
So, it seems we do show more than usual slow waves during wakefullness (and during REM, what would be expected as brain sleep physiology does resemble the wakefullness state), in addition to show lack of deep waves while sleeping.
Finally, to make this relationship between ME/CFS and delta waves more interesting, Naviaux also states: ‘In classical mitochondrial diseases like Alpers syndrome, the need for brain repair is so great that delta waves are seen in the EEG even while awake’. So, when mitochondria does’t function as it should, the brain uses the deep waves during wakefulness as a compensation… (Alper’s Syndrome: https://ghr.nlm.nih.gov/condition/alpers-huttenlocher-syndrome#genes).
Sorry my essay… I just wanted to highlight some data before asking the following questions:
1. Does anyone know if this therapy or a similar one has been used in ME/CFS? If so, any good outcomes? (ok, I have just realized that there is a case study... Is there more evidence on this treatment?).
2. What do you think about the possible potential benefits of this therapy for ME/CFS?
3. Do you think this treatment approach could be somehow similar to the vagal stimulation? Has anyone tried this one yet?
Any input will be much appreciated!!!
Thank you!
Sergio
(I just saw this subject has been treated in a previous thread; however I'd like to open these new one anyway, because I'd like to focus the debate on how Transcranial Electrical stimulation fits with the Naviaux's Dauer state theory)
I guess some of you must have already read the recently published Naviaux’s paper (https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1567724918301053?via=ihub#bb0325). I must say that it is one of the most brilliant texts that I’ve read in the past few years, way ahead of the current dogmas we still study in medicine. Of course the concept that ME/CFS might be a sort of “pathological state” from which theoretically a given temporary treatment could get us out from in a relatively short time is not new, this now more elaborated theory fits pretty well with some of the 'miraculous' transient improvements many PWCFS have experienced after taking an antibiotic, or with LDI, or with D-ribose (this happened to me!), etc. The same can be argued for the sudden onset of the illness many of us suffered.
Anyway, when he talks about the treatments trialed so far supporting his proposed approach, he of course mentions Suramin, but also the so called ‘low-intensity pulses using transcranial electrical stimulation (LIP-tES)’. I read the whole paper he quotes regarding this therapy (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/28925734), and I really wanted to run some thoughts/reflections by you on the possibility of getting some relief from this therapy.
In a nutshell, the paper describes how some electrical pulses applied to the scalp by means of several electrodes, show very significant improvements in a very short time in 6 patients with Mild traumatic brain injury. The mechanism of action proposed, is that these currents would potentiate the healing properties of the slow Delta waves. These slow waves should only occur in the deep phases of sleep, but it seems that in some disorders they might appear during wakefulness, maybe as a healing process of the body. Well, in theory this treatment would be potentiating these slow waves occurring naturally in patients with Mild traumatic brain injury, and this would explain the great improvements observed.
Naviaux explains in his paper how these deep cerebral waves would be an example of how to force some stuck cells out of the “Dauer” state, therefore achieving recovery. While this specific treatment would seem too localized into the neurons of the cerebral cortex, opposed to the systemic approach we might need for ME/CFS (something Suramin would achieve, in theory), the possible symptoms of the Mild traumatic brain injury drew my attention:
1) headaches; 2) feelings of dizziness; 3) nausea and/or vomiting; 4) noise sensitivity, easily upset by loud noise; 5) sleep disturbance; 6) fatigue, tiring more easily; 7) being irritable, easily angered; 8) feeling depressed or tearful; 9) feeling frustrated or impatient; 10) forgetfulness, poor memory; 11) poor concentration; 12) taking longer to think; 13) blurred vision; 14) light sensitivity, easily upset by brigh light; 15) double vision; and 16) restlessness
Well, I’m sure you can see my point! So, my first impulse has been to look for EEGs made in EM/CFS patients, and after a quick search, this is what I’ve found:
1- https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4734796/:
(…)The subjects were seated on a soft chair in a relaxed state, but were awake and concentrating. (…)These results indicate that there was a significant increase of the slow brain electrical activities in the right frontal area in CFS patients.(…)
2- https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2765956/:
(…)In persons with CFS, delta power was diminished during slow wave sleep, but elevated during both stage 1 and REM(…)
So, it seems we do show more than usual slow waves during wakefullness (and during REM, what would be expected as brain sleep physiology does resemble the wakefullness state), in addition to show lack of deep waves while sleeping.
Finally, to make this relationship between ME/CFS and delta waves more interesting, Naviaux also states: ‘In classical mitochondrial diseases like Alpers syndrome, the need for brain repair is so great that delta waves are seen in the EEG even while awake’. So, when mitochondria does’t function as it should, the brain uses the deep waves during wakefulness as a compensation… (Alper’s Syndrome: https://ghr.nlm.nih.gov/condition/alpers-huttenlocher-syndrome#genes).
Sorry my essay… I just wanted to highlight some data before asking the following questions:
1. Does anyone know if this therapy or a similar one has been used in ME/CFS? If so, any good outcomes? (ok, I have just realized that there is a case study... Is there more evidence on this treatment?).
2. What do you think about the possible potential benefits of this therapy for ME/CFS?
3. Do you think this treatment approach could be somehow similar to the vagal stimulation? Has anyone tried this one yet?
Any input will be much appreciated!!!
Thank you!
Sergio
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