Traditional Chinese Medicine for CFS

[andyguitar]

Several pages in this study about TCM for cfs.

 

[Rufous McKinney]

Several pages in this study about TCM for cfs.

thanks! I'll enjoy reading thru that over time.

I am supposed to be taking around 38 herbs targetting my Yin Deficiency and main symptoms outside the digestive problems. Thats on the shelf, waiting, with some lymph cleanse herbs added. But I had to stall the cleanse, so I stopped the tea for a while.

I have been off for the last year. But frankly, this is exciting: I'm going to be resuming that tea, and I'll better able to charactize the improvements I'll be enjoying.

I really wish I could get thru this window of Detox. It keeps stalling.

***
Short Story- I'm alone at the CTM office, next to the amazing books. I randomly selected one book on the shelf out of 250. I did the thing where you randomly open it to one page. And there it is describing, in a rough English translation, directly from some oh 300 year old Chinese Text- Bulbous Lillii Syndrome.

And I proceed to read this description and YUP there we are, there I am. Its describing WIRED but TIRED in this absolutely amazing way.

How you lie down on the bed because your somehow unable to function, and as you try to rest and lie there, NOPE instead your in this almost wired yet exhausted state.

Cure: boil up some Lily Bulb and drink the frothy stuff.

Now, its unlikely I can find this description online- but I may once again try, as it was so amazing to read.

(p.s. so when I asked, I discovered I', given bulbous lillii- sometimes, not all the time, he varies things over time, as we sort of vary the focus at any one moment)

 

[andyguitar]

thanks! I'll enjoy reading thru that over time.

Page 4 cuts to the chase.

 

[wabi-sabi]

I can't say it looks like there's anything terribly helpful here.

1) The ancient texts don't describe ME/CFS, as the authors say "Obviously, although such symptoms do not exactly mimic the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) research criteria for CFS, they are extremely similar to CFS, as Table 2 indicates." As we all know, many diseases cause fatigue. Something translated from ancient texts as "fatigue syndrome" with as many symptoms listed in Table 2, could be any disease at all, or a combo of diseases. It doesn't include PEM and does include vomiting blood. If we are going to get treatments for ME/CFS, we need to be clear that we are dealing with ME/CFS.

2) Even if we accept this paper is about ME/CFS and not generalized fatigue or fatigue from any other cause, the treatments are symptomatic and nothing we haven't heard before. Work on sleep, emotional balance and nourishing meals. I'm already doing that and a miracle has not occurred. TCM herbs, like any medication, have specific mechanisms of action. There's no info in this paper about whether these herbs target mitochondrial function or orthostatic intolerance or any of the things we know break down in ME/CFS. As such, it's sort of a guess.

3) The evidence they include in the review is just...odd. Ginseng showed inconsistent effects on fatigue. Angelic root helps menopause (good to know, but this is a review on CFS, not menopause) and Peony helps rats with cognitive problems (did the rats have ME/CFS? maybe they were old rats with dementia). Since reviews want to include best quality evidence, this strikes me as grasping at straws.

4) While they described looking in ancient monographs, they did not provide a search strategy for modern studies, meaning we have no idea if they were able to choose quality studies or just did a quick google. Doing a systematic review properly means describing your search well enough so that someone else can both replicate it and check your work. I don't see that's been done here.

 

[Rufous McKinney]

I don't see that's been done here.

the paper makes the first mistake of assuming that a term like Fatigue- represents whats wrong with those of us who have ME.

That can't be fixed. So go start a bonfire if you like.

Sure, who knows what fatigue is being referred to.

but there are many many of our related symptoms discussed here to some limited degree.

I don't need western science to tell me chinese traditional herbs can help me feel better.

I'll be dead before any of that ever happens.

Over there: I get helped.

Behind Door number three (my Primary Care Physicians office)..pretty much they have nothing to offer me.

 

[wabi-sabi]

Behind Door number three (my Primary Care Physicians office)..pretty much they have nothing to offer me.

I know the feeling!

 

[Rufous McKinney]

I don't need western science to tell me chinese traditional herbs can help me feel better.

just to clarify- I seriously doubt any pill or herbs or whatever can in fact- put my fingerprints back.

So I doubt they can- reverse and repair lower brain stem collapse, that I think occurs in our illness or can eventually.

So its about- reducing the lousy feeling so its less lousy. Cures- a cure is welcome to show up here anytime.

Feel Free, Cure.

 

[wabi-sabi]

So I doubt they can- reverse and repair lower brain stem collapse, that I think occurs in our illness or can eventually.

This is the scary thought, isn't it?

If/when we get a cure, exactly how much of the damage will be repairable? I just don't know.

 

[Rufous McKinney]

This is the scary thought, isn't it?

If/when we get a cure, exactly how much of the damage will be repairable? I just don't know.

This is- well a real mysterious part of our greater mystery.

Im a long haul of ME CFS. From everything we've observed recently, I do believe there is something to the Mechanical Basis, and collagen has broken down here over the decades. Much worse than in a healthy person.

And in my case, I believe I'm an indiagnosed spinal birth issues- may have started up something that has just crept along in a stealth fashion over the decades. So I was mild for a very very long time, if you like the term.

So whats going on with all these other types of degradations, in folks who have addressed the mechanical problem- well I'm very unclear and I suspect most people who have gotten those treatments aren't older folks.

So maybe there can be some recovery and improvement in tissue and such that- it might improve.

But when you get to my stage, these things aren' t likely going to vanish overnight. But they're welcome to do so.

 

[andyguitar]

On page 6 of the file I posted at the start of this thread it mentions a herbal formula used to treat blood disorders saying "Ren-Shen-Yang-Rong-Tang a prescription for invigorating qi and nourishing the blood, was used in the management of 134 CFS patients and of those 98 returned to work or school."

 

[Rufous McKinney]

"Ren-Shen-Yang-Rong-Tang a prescription for invigorating qi and nourishing the blood

here is an interesting study discussing the use of this formula in Alzheimers patients.

https://lcm.amegroups.com/article/view/7362/html

several of the herbs in this traditional formula I take in my custom formula.

 

[Rufous McKinney]

From the paper above:

Traditional Chinese medicines [including Ren Shen Yang Rong Tang (RSYR), Shuan Zao Ren Tang (SZRT), Liu Wei Di Huang Wan (LWDH) and the herbs used in these formulas] have been used for improving the symptoms of neurodegenerative diseases in China, Japan, Korea and other Asian countries for more than 3,000 years (13-15).

Among these medicines, RSYR and LWDH can improve aging-related frailty, memory impairment, chronic fatigue and feebleness. SZRT is known to cure insomnia with weakness. These Chinese medicines and the herbs used in their formulas have been demonstrated to increase cognitive function in elderly population (16). It has been reported that RSYR could promote proliferation of oligodendrocyte precursor cells from aged rat brain (17) and increase nerve growth factor (NGF) secretion in the cultured rat astrocytes (18). LWDH exhibited anti-inflammatory and antioxidant effects in obese rats (19). LWDH and its active fraction combination could improve the cognitive ability and neuronal synaptic function in aging or AD animal models through controlling the neuroendocrine immunomodulation network (20).

SZRT showed positive effects on dementia patients with sleep disorders (21,22). However, little is known about the mechanisms of these herbal medicines on the improvement of AD. In the present study, we investigated antioxidant activity, cyclooxygenase-2 (COX-2) and AChE inhibitory activities of RSYR, SZRT, LWDH and 7 herbs by using ORAC (Oxygen Radical Absorbance Capacity) activity assay, COX-2 inhibitor screening assay and AChE activity assay. We present the following article in accordance with the MDAR reporting checklist (available at http://dx.doi.org/10.21037/lcm-21-12).

 

[andyguitar]

several of the herbs in this traditional formula I take in my custom formula.

Which ones?

 

[Rufous McKinney]

Which ones?

looks like I take three of those things, from this formula....mixed in with 37 total herbs I take ...

the Angelica, Schizandra and Atractyloides.....

So my practitioner probably started with the mix from 1175 AD, and then he made adjustments for my particularly situation. He has at least 600 herbs to play with in the office.

(I'm sure I often take licorice (with other necessary herbs) and have had ginseng in the past). We adjust my mix periodically).

My particular situation is related to my being a genetic red head. This was a key feature in my formula.

My practitioner had to develop approaches for red heads, with genetic Yin Deficiency.

 

[Ancient-Eyes]

I found this https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32827411/ referring to a Kampo medicine called Goreisan, they used it in this case for MCS. In TCM it is called Wu Ling San.

It is made up of 5 ingredients - Poria, Polyporus, Rhizoma Alismatis, Rhizoma Atractylodis Macrocephalae, Ramulus Cinnamomi.

Does anyone know a good source for TCM? I can't afford to see a practitioner but I'd like to get my hands on this and try it. I found a couple versions of it on Amazon (as Wu Ling San) that don't have enough info about the company or where they source the ingredients. Found it on this website - https://www.mimaki-family-japan.com/item/detail?item_prefix=TF&item_code=005315&item_branch=002 as Goreisan but I don't know anything about this source either.

 

[andyguitar]

Does anyone know a good source for TCM?

Are there any TCM shops/clinics in your area? If so you should be able to get it there either as a prepared formula or they might be able to make it up for you.

 

[Rufous McKinney]

We use wholesalers and "granular tea" producers, who do testing. the Plum Flower brands are all tested and come out of San Francisco. They work with growers in China, directly. I forgot the name of the other main wholesaler- I could ask.

If the brands are doing testing, they will say so. most supplements produced in the US are not tested.

 

[Ancient-Eyes]

Are there any TCM shops/clinics in your area? If so you should be able to get it there either as a prepared formula or they might be able to make it up for you.

We use wholesalers and "granular tea" producers, who do testing. the Plum Flower brands are all tested and come out of San Francisco. They work with growers in China, directly. I forgot the name of the other main wholesaler- I could ask.

If the brands are doing testing, they will say so. most supplements produced in the US are not tested.

Thank you both, I will look into these. If it helps I'll make a thread about it.