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    Created in 2008, Phoenix Rising is the largest and oldest forum dedicated to furthering the understanding of, and finding treatments for, complex chronic illnesses such as chronic fatigue syndrome (ME/CFS), fibromyalgia, long COVID, postural orthostatic tachycardia syndrome (POTS), mast cell activation syndrome (MCAS), and allied diseases.

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This is what we're up against

Mary

Moderator Resource
Messages
17,384
Location
Southern California
@Sidereal - thanks for posting this. It's appalling, as someone else said. Wow - to know what really goes through their very closed little minds - it's disheartening, to say the least. I think adreno's comments about exposure are very good. Those "doctors" obviously didn't read the report or they would have read about the 2-day exercise stress tests, findings of pots and so on. Or else their minds are so firmly closed that no new information can get in. That seems to be the case. I'm just stunned by their vehemence and arrogance and willful stupidity.
 

SOC

Senior Member
Messages
7,849
I think exposure is more likely to work. Medscape is semi-private, but at least here they are exposed. If we could increase this exposure even more it would be great, and juxtapose their comments with excerpts from the IOM report.
I suppose there's also the option of reporting them to their employer (hospital, clinic?). A copy of the good doctors' public comments along with a few extracts from the IOM report they are commenting upon (but clearly didn't read), along with a simple, unemotional statement pointing out that this public attitude towards patients the IOM has declared seriously ill makes their organization look very bad to the public, might have the effect of shutting up these ignoramuses.
 

SDSue

Southeast
Messages
1,066
I suppose there's also the option of reporting them to their employer (hospital, clinic?). A copy of the good doctors' public comments along with a few extracts from the IOM report they are commenting upon (but clearly didn't read), along with a simple, unemotional statement pointing out that this public attitude towards patients the IOM has declared seriously ill makes their organization look very bad to the public, might have the effect of shutting up these ignoramuses.
Can we start a thread where we collect these idiots along with their comments (but not ours - keep it neat and tidy)? At least then we'd have them all in one place when we are ready to take action.
 

Mary

Moderator Resource
Messages
17,384
Location
Southern California
Well, I went to Medscape and said I was a nutritionist/dietician (which I think I am in fact!) and posted this, FWIW. I'm not sure if you need to be a medical professional to post a comment, but WTH:

Pardon me, doctors, but your (willful?) ignorance is showing. If you read the IOM report carefully, you will note that it refers to a 2-day cardiopulmonary stress test which shows gross abnormalities and a major drop in exercise capability when performed by persons who have CFS, or SEID, and which are not seen in any other illness. This is not someone getting tired after a 100-mile bike ride. This is someone becoming bedridden after grocery shopping, or even less activity. This is an objective, reproducible test with objective reproducible findings. Here are a couple of links where you can learn more: http://solvecfs.org/science-and-legal-news-on-postexertional-malaise/ http://phoenixrising.me/archives/17902
This is not depression, major or otherwise, and not a brilliant attempt to get disability. It’s a devastating illness, made all the more intolerable by the contempt and ignorance of the very profession which is supposed to help.
 

Sidereal

Senior Member
Messages
4,856
Can we start a thread where we collect these idiots along with their comments (but not ours - keep it neat and tidy)? At least then we'd have them all in one place when we are ready to take action.

If people wanna keep gathering idiotic/abusive comments from physicians I am happy to keep editing the initial post so that the gallery of shameful stupidity is there for posterity.
 

leela

Senior Member
Messages
3,290
This is precisely why it was a huge error not to have "NeuroImmune" in the name.
Everyone who is actually a patient, or a physicians who works with us patients, sees that it
is clearly a neuroimmune situation. Why keep taking *one* symptom and then naming it after that?
 

leela

Senior Member
Messages
3,290
I think this one is great:

Dr. Donald Gehrig Internal Medicine
"why would the IOM be the decider on this?"

It's a valid point, whatever the bias in making it might have been.
 

CBS

Senior Member
Messages
1,522
I do think that what we are seeing is a bit of projection. So many physicians are burnt out and dream of an excuse to walk away and collect disability. The suicide rate amongst physicians is higher than in any other profession.

In the US, these people are generally not the confident, satisfied professionals they would like us to see. As a group, I tend to view them as five year-olds. The compassionate doc is rare and should be appreciated all the more.
 

Gingergrrl

Senior Member
Messages
16,171
The only thing that gives me hope is that ultimately these doctors will end up on the wrong side of history (even though I might not personally live to see that day.)

There was a time when slavery was the norm in America and no amount of evidence would have changed the minds of the slave owners b/c their beliefs were set. Fast forward and we now have an African American president. (I am not using this example to debate politics but to show that things do and can change- and I mean MAJOR things.)

We cannot give up on this fight b/c there are ignorant close minded doctors around. This is nothing new. Ryan Prior (of Forgotten Plague documentary) created the Blue Ribbon Scholarship so new doctors will intern with CFS specialists and will learn what the medical schools are not teaching.

Right now Dr. Patient, myself and Jeff W. from PR are planning to create a website where doctors, nurses, social workers and healthcare professionals world wide can share their stories for other doctors to read and we already have some great ideas how to start this project.

Lastly the End ME/CFS Project has an amazing team of doctors and scientists including the men behind the Human Genome Project and the discoverer of DNA. Would these same doctors who just posted bullying comments behind their computers on Medscape tell Ron Davis or James Watson these same comments to their faces? I don't think so.

I refuse to be bullied by these ignorant faceless doctors when there is still work to be done.
 

Sidereal

Senior Member
Messages
4,856
I am collecting addresses and phone numbers ;)

Oh I thought we were keeping this for quotes. If you're putting together institutional affiliations/contact details I'd suggest starting a new thread in a members only part of the forum or a private group perhaps.
 

Sidereal

Senior Member
Messages
4,856
I do think that what we are seeing is a bit of projection. So many physicians are burnt out and dream of an excuse to walk away and collect disability. The suicide rate amongst physicians is higher than in any other profession.

In the US, these people are generally not the confident, satisfied professionals they would like us to see. As a group, I tend to view them as five year-olds. The compassionate doc is rare and should be appreciated all the more.

I don't think burnt out suicidal five year olds should have prescribing privileges or the authority to lock people up in psychiatric wards for having severe ME. Bring in mandatory psych evaluations and drug/alcohol testing for doctors every few years. I appreciate medicine is a very stressful profession but that doesn't give them the right to be abusive to patients whose illnesses happen to be poorly understood.
 

alex3619

Senior Member
Messages
13,810
Location
Logan, Queensland, Australia
I have a number of initial thoughts on this.

First, this is to be expected. Most doctors are not scientists, and too overworked and under-resourced to properly investigate. Most do not use evidence based practices, and are not inclined to. Indeed, there are disincentives to do so. Most, when asked about evidence based practices, will regurgitate simplified evidence based medicine slogans.

To expand on this, most doctors are conservative. They tend to protect the status quo.

Second, under some of the reasoning the field of psychiatry would disappear ... its even less validated than SEID. Where are the biomarkers? Which brings me to ...

They are conflating the lack of a diagnostic test for SEID, ME or CFS, with the lack of diagnostic tests for the pathophysiology. Its very embarassing to the medical profession that the three most important tests are 1940s tests (TTT, qEEG and CPET) and obvious, and available at large hospitals, and taught to doctors at good medical schools. So why have they spent more than half a century in ignorance of this? It must be galling.

They can dispute the validity of SEID as a disease entity. Join the club, I am not convinced either. Yet what cannot be disputed is the pathophysiology. So they are arguing from ignorance. Operating in defiance of the existing evidence is ineptitude.

As advocates we need to push the fact that most of the symptoms are verifiable in a patient with very old tests they should have been using for decades, and that the one remaining diagnostic symptom (sleep issues) has tests but reliability is in question. Most of the diagnostic criteria are capable of independent verification, patient by patient.
 
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SDSue

Southeast
Messages
1,066
Oh I thought we were keeping this for quotes. If you're putting together institutional affiliations/contact details I'd suggest starting a new thread in a members only part of the forum or a private group perhaps.
I think both are highly valuable.

Moderators, what say you? @Kina @Sushi If we collect quotes and contact information for these abusive docs, does it need to be in a members only area, or wide open for the public to see? At the very least, I think these doc's employers need to know of their doc's abuse of patients.

It's time to educate these idiots.
 

alex3619

Senior Member
Messages
13,810
Location
Logan, Queensland, Australia
On the precautionary principle, I would recommend a private thread for contact details.

You will not be able to educate most of them. I could go into reasons why but its a long list.

What we can do is shoot down their points, one by one, with references, on Medscape or other places where we can post.
 

Undisclosed

Senior Member
Messages
10,157
@SDSue

As long as the quotes don't breach copyright, then it's fine to post comments made by doctors. However, members should avoid making defamatory statements about these doctors. I would suggest that these kind of things be kept to members only if contact information is going to be included.

I wonder what the ramifications will be in the USA if all of the IOM things are sanctioned. Will doctors be sued/sanctioned for referring to ME/SEID patients in a derogatory fashion. Imagine if Cancer, AIDs patients were on the receiving end of this kind of abusive, discriminatory ignorance.

I think also it would be nice to thank those doctors who support us.
 

Aurator

Senior Member
Messages
625
I haven't really got words to express my dismay at some of the comments submitted to that Medscape article; they strike me as so unacceptable for a doctor to hold that disciplinary action against the doctors in question seems called for. Certainly I don't think you'd get away with that level of knee-jerk public denigration of a patient group in the UK.

You'll never make these people see the light. They are probably as hostile and prejudiced towards people of certain racial backgrounds or sexual orientation as they are towards PWME. They represent the nasty underbelly of a society that is orderly but not yet truly humane. As others such as Jeannette Burmeister have recognised, the fight to find and implement an effective treatment for ME will take place in the courts as much as in the research laboratories. Legislation can force a change in people's views more effectively and more swiftly than any amount of compelling evidence for the wrongness of the views people happen to hold.