The viral origin of myalgic encephalomyelitis/chronic fatigue syndrome (Hanson, 2023)

[Mary]

The viral origin of myalgic encephalomyelitis/chronic fatigue syndrome (Maureen Hanson, 8/17/2023)​

She posits that enteroviruses are the most likely culprit for ME/CFS.

 

[consuegra]

Maureen Hanson has read the literature on the viral origins of ME. There is ample evidence that Coxsackie B4 virus and other enteroviruses were connected to ME in the UK some years ago. Somehow this thread has been lost and forgotten, except for the work of Dr. John Chia, who cured his own son of a Coxsackie B4 infection around 2002.

His son tested high for Coxsackie B4 antibodies via neutralization at ARUP labs in Salt Lake. I believe that ARUP is the only lab in America to do this test. The ARUP lab test is much better than Quest or Labcorp, which are worthless. I have done both Quest and ARUP off the same blood and Quest comes up with next to nothing while ARUP signals high B3 and B4, (consistently for 20 years).

Dr. John Chia has continued to study Enteroviruses and to work hard to help his patients. There are no known treatments for Coxsackie B4 at present although possibilities loom just out of reach. It seems a black hole.

Meanwhile no one has picked up on Dr. Chia's thoughts and research. The question is why? If one virus can be proved to sequester in tissues, it might be a big step in further looking at other causal viruses. Somehow this idea does not dawn on other researchers. It has been this way for 20 years now and doesn't look like it Is going to change.

It is not a new idea to look backwards in history in order to move forward. But in the case it seems to have been forgotten. Who wants to embrace a clue or clues that are 30 plus years old?

Chris

 

[Oliver3]

Are these enteroviruses transmissible?

 

[Tom Kindlon]

Viral Origins of Chronic Fatigue Syndrome May Be Hiding in Plain Sight

HEALTH
03 September 2023
By CLARE WATSON

https://www.sciencealert.com/viral-origins-of-chronic-fatigue-syndrome-may-be-hiding-in-plain-sight

On recent paper by Maureen Hanson "The viral origin of myalgic encephalomyelitis/chronic fatigue syndrome" https://journals.plos.org/plospathogens/article?id=10.1371/journal.ppat.1011523

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Pinning down a viral culprit for ME/CFS is tricky because blood tests can only definitely point to a specific virus during the acute phase of infection. After that they will be awash with the antibodies a person's body has raised against all sorts of viruses from past infections.

What's more, by the time a person develops ME/CFS and receives a formal diagnosis (if they do), they or their treating doctor might not make the connection between their illness and a previous viral infection.

Up to half of enteroviral infections are asymptomatic, and people with ME/CFS who participate in research studies have likely been unwell for years. Enteroviruses are also very common, and often cause mild illness.

"Approximately one-third of ME/CFS patients cannot trace their onset to a flu-like illness," explains Hanson. "Quite possibly, they could have had an asymptomatic case or a mild one long before the onset of the characteristic ME/CFS symptoms."

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1698308707233173699

 

[consuegra]

The viral origin of myalgic encephalomyelitis/chronic fatigue syndrome (Maureen Hanson, 8/17/2023)​

She posits that enteroviruses are the most likely culprit for ME/CFS.

In 2014 I was in Tustin CA for a lecture of Dr. David Bell, a seminal physician in ME/CFS research. Dr. Bell asked me to arrange an appointment for him with Dr. John Chia. We went to Dr. Chia's office and Dr. Chia gave Dr. Bell a two hour lecture on the Enteroviral. connection to ME/CFS. Dr. Bell was amazed. What amazed me was that Dr Bell was amazed.

Chris

 

[Tammy]

Don't agree with Enteroviruses being the culprit. More likely DNA viruses. Enteroviruses are mild compared to the beasty DNA viruses.

 

[Wishful]

There is ample evidence that Coxsackie B4 virus and other enteroviruses were connected to ME in the UK some years ago.

Connected to, but that doesn't mean that it was the actual cause of ME. Since people develop ME without signs of viral infection, it could just be that some viruses are better at setting the stage for ME's core dysfunction to switch into the ME state. Other viral infections could be better at making ME symptoms more severe, but that's just adding to the baseline ME symptoms.

 

[Forummember9922]

fwiw many previous studies are listed here on this topic
https://me-pedia.org/wiki/List_of_enterovirus_infection_studies

 

[Hip]

Since people develop ME without signs of viral infection, it could just be that some viruses are better at setting the stage for ME's core dysfunction to switch into the ME state.

I would say that an important clue to the nature of ME/CFS might be found if we consider the two known triggers of ME/CFS, namely viral infection (which is observed in about 90% of ME/CFS cases), and vaccination (which seems to trigger around 1 or 2% of ME/CFS case, according to research from Dr Chia).

How is it that both infection and vaccination can trigger ME/CFS?


Also, we should bear in mind that it's generally found that vaccine-triggered ME/CFS patients will have chronically elevated antibody titres to the same viruses that are found in infection-triggered ME/CFS (viruses like enteroviruses or herpesviruses). So even with the vaccine-trigger, viruses appear to be involved, or at least their titres are high (whereas you don't usually find such high titres in healthy people).


Clearly these viruses found in vaccine-triggered ME/CFS must have already been present in the patient before the vaccination (though possibly before the vaccination their antibody titres may not have been elevated).

So it is possible the vaccine might have somehow changed some immune state in the body such that these viruses which were already present but were causing no problem started causing ME/CFS.


I would like to see more research into vaccine-triggered ME/CFS, as if we can figure out what sort of immune state is being flipped by the vaccine, this might lead us to the fundamental cause of ME/CFS.

 

[consuegra]

Connected to, but that doesn't mean that it was the actual cause of ME. Since people develop ME without signs of viral infection, it could just be that some viruses are better at setting the stage for ME's core dysfunction to switch into the ME state. Other viral infections could be better at making ME symptoms more severe, but that's just adding to the baseline ME symptoms.

I am not saying enterovirus is a cause. I am only asking why the disinterest in looking. There is a history. If you read the link in the next post, the connections in UK were repeated and substantial. My only question is why has enteroviruses dropped off the list of viruses explored by researchers. To me, it makes no sense.

Chris

 

[consuegra]

I would say that an important clue to the nature of ME/CFS might be found if we consider the two known triggers of ME/CFS, namely viral infection (which is observed in about 90% of ME/CFS cases), and vaccination (which seems to trigger around 1 or 2% of ME/CFS case, according to research from Dr Chia).

How is it that both infection and vaccination can trigger ME/CFS?


Also, we should bear in mind that it's generally found that vaccine-triggered ME/CFS patients will have chronically elevated antibody titres to the same viruses that are found in infection-triggered ME/CFS (viruses like enteroviruses or herpesviruses). So even with the vaccine-trigger, viruses appear to be involved, or at least their titres are high (whereas you don't usually find such high titres in healthy people).


Clearly these viruses found in vaccine-triggered ME/CFS must have already been present in the patient before the vaccination (though possibly before the vaccination their antibody titres may not have been elevated).

So it is possible the vaccine might have somehow changed some immune state in the body such that these viruses which were already present but were causing no problem started causing ME/CFS.


I would like to see more research into vaccine-triggered ME/CFS, as if we can figure out what sort of immune state is being flipped by the vaccine, this might lead us to the fundamental cause of ME/CFS.

Thanks for this. I have wondered about a Hepatitis vaccine that my daughter got several years before ME. Dr. Chia always speaks of multiple hits.
Chris

 

[Hip]

I have wondered about a Hepatitis vaccine that my daughter got several years before ME.

From the reports I have seen on forums, people who experience vaccine-triggered ME/CFS have some of the fastest onsets of all patients, going from full health to full-blown ME/CFS in a matter of days after getting the vaccine.

So from what I have seen, when a vaccine triggers ME/CFS, it does so more or less immediately.

So my guess is that a vaccine one had several years before onset probably did not play a causal role in triggering the disease. Of course, one can never know for sure, but this is my best guess.

 

[hapl808]

Thanks for this. I have wondered about a Hepatitis vaccine that my daughter got several years before ME. Dr. Chia always speaks of multiple hits.
Chris

I recently discovered I got a Hep B vaccine 7 days before all my symptoms really started. I thought I got a viral illness while traveling, but now I'm unsure once I discovered some correlations between Hep B vaccination and neurological issues.

So from what I have seen, when a vaccine triggers ME/CFS, it does so more or less immediately.

This may have been true for me, but some of the research on the Hep B vaccine in particular just showed elevated levels of MS and other neurological diagnoses in the years after rolling out the Hep B vaccine in France.

Clearly these viruses found in vaccine-triggered ME/CFS must have already been present in the patient before the vaccination (though possibly before the vaccination their antibody titres may not have been elevated).

So it is possible the vaccine might have somehow changed some immune state in the body such that these viruses which were already present but were causing no problem started causing ME/CFS.

I've always thought it was just some trigger or modification of the immune system. It makes some intuitive sense that many things can impact immune function. By definition, both vaccines and viruses do that. So does huge stress triggers, major injuries, etc. Not sure what mechanism, but I've always leaned more toward immune function rather than pure viral persistence - but I'm really just going by (compromised) gut feeling.

 

[Hip]

but I've always leaned more toward immune function rather than pure viral persistence - but I'm really just going by (compromised) gut feeling.

Yes, me too.

If you look at the results of interferon therapy for ME/CFS, this often leads to dramatic improvements for enterovirus ME/CFS patients. And as they improve, their enterovirus viral titres drop, suggesting enterovirus is the cause of their ME/CFS symptoms.

But several months later, they usually relapse back into ME/CFS, and their viral titres go up again.


If ME/CFS were purely a viral persistence issue, you might expect that interferon would make permanent improvements, and that once interferon reduced viral load, that load would remain low, kept in check by a robust immune response. Much in the same way as antibiotics will bring a bacterial infection under control, and thereafter the immune system stops the bacterial infection from flaring up again.

But the fact that the virus returns some months after interferon therapy suggests to me that the is some immune weakness or issue that prevents the immune response from keeping these viral infections in check.

If we could figure out what causes this immune weakness is, and if we could rectify it, then think the viral infections of ME/CFS would be cleared automatically as the immune response returns to normal.


I think this immune weakness pertains only to low-level intracellular infections, such as the low-levels of enterovirus RNA found in the cells of ME/CFS patients. In general I don't think there is any immune dysfunction when it comes to responding to acute viral infections, such as colds.

Indeed, many ME/CFS patients appear to have hyper-immunity when it comes to colds, as they report rarely catching any colds (although there is a small subset of patients who are the opposite, and catch everything going).

 

[Forummember9922]

Indeed, many ME/CFS patients appear to have hyper-immunity when it comes to colds, as they report rarely catching any colds (although there is a small subset of patients who are the opposite, and catch everything going).

Edit: I’ve wondered if there’s simply no real estate for a new cold virus to occupy because there is already another virus that has set up shop.

If we could figure out what causes this immune weakness is, and if we could rectify it,

That’s where its chicken/egg as you know and to me the culprit that fits so nicely- as far as what has turned all of these immune mechanisms wonky to begin with - is initially a virus or bacteria trying to survive. But which one started the cascade? and where or in which tissue or organ did the cascade of events truly begin. 😣

Even autoimmunity itself IE molecular mimicry can be shown to have viral origin. I’m with you though, fix whatever the initial thing is, following issues resolve. Certainly a month of sofosbuvir and a couple months tenofovir has not cured me. Im doing better than onset by far, but im still not me. Eyeballing the upcoming hsv1 vaccine trials though. #offtopic

 

[Hip]

Or it could be there’s simply no real estate for a new cold virus to occupy because there is already another virus that has set up shop.

There are millions of uninfected epithelial cells in the respiratory tract that a cold virus could infect.

Rich Van Konynenburg's theory of why most ME/CFS patients rarely catch colds is given here. Basically he suggested that the first line of immune defence, the interferon response, is always active in ME/CFS, so cold viruses get clobbered with the interferon response as soon as the land on the epithelium.

He thought that this always-active interferon response was to try to make up for defects in other areas of the immune response, namely NK cell and CD-8 killer T cell dysfunction.

So in his theory, resistance to catching colds was a symptom of defects elsewhere in the immune response.

 

[Wishful]

I’m with you though, fix whatever the initial thing is, following issues resolve.

That I don't agree with. If you release the trigger on a gun, the bullet wound doesn't go away. The ME state gets triggered by various factors, such as viral infections, but persists after the trigger is gone. I view it as a positive feedback loop: once that state gets triggered, various mechanisms in the body maintain that positive feedback, and it's difficult to switch us back out of that state and maintain the off state. I've had multiple remission that abruptly switched back to the ME state. That rapid and complete switching of states is characteristic of a positive feedback loop. It is not characteristic of chronic infections, permanently degraded cells, microbiome populations, or other hypotheses.

Chronic infections can add to the symptom severity of ME, and removal of that infection can lessen the severity, but not to zero, since some of the symptoms are due to other aspects of ME. Caveat: some people might have their associated mechanisms in a state where they would normally be in the non-ME state, but chronic infection might keep them in the ME state, so curing the infection could cure their ME, at least until the next infection.

 

[Forummember9922]

There are millions of uninfected epithelial cells in the respiratory tract that a cold virus could infect.

Rich Van Konynenburg's theory of why most ME/CFS patients rarely catch colds is given here.

Thanks maybe I was misinformed on this. Good read. I think I saw something in one of Prustys long video presentations but maybe I misinterpreted.

 

[Rufous McKinney]

I experienced something Eppstein Barr related, since I was a child/many decades ago. But whatever I had was a mild version using criteria, etc. I'd crash, but not in a classic PEM way.

Then something ELSE HAPPENED. I got much worse, over a period of a few months. I feel I'll never know what happened. But did I acquire a new virus?

you would think somebody could at least figure that out. Clearly, there the lack of interest in doing so is remarkable.

 

[Rufous McKinney]

I think I saw something in one of Prustys long video presentations but maybe I misinterpreted.

My four year old grandaughter got herself thru 1.75 days of Preschool just started, before she got sick AGAIN

Gave it to the baby; and my daughter. Now me. She's gets some pretty lousy coughs. I suspect she maybe did get exposed to COVID along the way.

But I passed out the Yin Chaio to everybody. The Four year old was sick before I knew it, so she got the least medicine.

Anyway, I caught the bad cold now, but I also took the Yin Chaoi. I ts very mild, and I will probably not get much worse.

I get a gastroperesis acute flu. But after umpteen bouts of it, I've decided it resides in my body, and I did not "catch it".

There is definitely something up, with us catching other things.