The Nightmare Scenario - IOM Case Definition Contract Terrifies ME/CFS Advocates

When in doubt, take an extreme case… Good rhetorics!
If we are proven wrong by having overreacted, well, so what… it will pass quickly, we won't regret it for the rest of our lives.

But if we are proven wrong by having refrained from overreacting , we will pay from hereon in, it will not pass.
So just in case the Munch "Scream" scenario is up ahead, why not indeed go all out to stop it. We have nothing to loose by carrying out relentlessly this political action, moreover it's just for a couple of weeks.

We will never regret having tried too hard, but we sure as hell might regret not having tried hard enough.
The real sad thing is that it's not rethorics. It's the real situation here in Europe. Wake up America, you're heading for disaster.
 
I am of the feeling that you have ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO LOOSE by taking a stance as patients and applying pressure within this situation. I could not also understate the importance of backing and supporting our Doctors and Advocates who have made a clear statement of their views in the letter that was sent.
If anybody has a very clear reason how this could be detrimental in anyway please educate me.
 
Yes @medfeb, the scope of the contract is critical, I point I have been trying to hammer home everywhere. Even the best experts will produce nonsense if they are forced to produce a broad and inclusive definition ... .though I think many will just resign rather than do this, or simply not sign up, if they have integrity.

If Oxford is included as a bone fide group, and subgrouping proceeds based on the limited data that exists, then there is no chance of a good definition. Subgrouping should have been researched for the last 19 years, as emphasized by Fukuda himself. The Fukuda definition was intended as a broad definition to be subgrouped ... what happened to that process? The CDC tried to expand and weaken it even further, making it more inclusive.

Worse, we don't know what is in the contract, nor the full criteria the IOM will use to select and classify evidence. That criteria will probably result in the primacy of psychogenic views, despite a complete lack of objective evidence that any psychogenic illness even exists. It seems that the rules of evidence do not apply to psychogenic disorders. Evidence based medicine along these lines is a sham, a failure of process. It is however becoming increasingly popular to use "evidence" to "manage" medicine, rather than produce effective results.
 
The real sad thing is that it's not rethorics. It's the real situation here in Europe. Wake up America, you're heading for disaster.

Hi @AzizaJ, I saw this years ago and its why I started to write a book on all this, though even the intro to that is some years away. However I think this understates the case. The world economy is going down the toilet. I think the notion that we will turn this around in the foreseeable future is based more on hope than sound reasoning. As a result government departments and politicians are under pressure to slash costs. The widespread notion that austerity is necessary is also driving this ... despite abundant historical evidence that such an approach guarantees economic stagnation.

What BPS views do, including a biased use of "evidence", is give governments a rationale for what they are doing to groups like us, and disabled more generally. Its policy, not science. Consensus panels often have this issue, anywhere. The scope of the problem, the rules permitted, the evidence allowed, predetermine the outcome. Suddenly the cheaper option (in the short term) becomes "justified", regardless of the evidence.
 
Folks I don't want to sound a down note, but given the unbelievable pressure on Sibelius and Co right now regarding the healthcare website failure, I'm not sure whether any of their staff will have attention for the IOM issue.

The timing couldn't be worse. Everyone in the entire HHS dept must be being hammered by all directions to fix that website, hair on fire kind of panic in the bureaucracy. IOM stuff? Not a priority. Not to say folks should stop advocating, but I'm just feeling a bit concerned that this other issue is a serious distraction from IOM.
 
Just a thought @Sparrowhawk, im wondering if that could have positives and negatives, slowing the process down might be beneficial to us for oraganising time.....but on the other hand it may distract people who are able to put a halt to or decrease chances of people listening at times to the opposition of the contract.
my brain is quite cloudy and slow this morn.
 
Alex
Worse, we don't know what is in the contract, nor the full criteria the IOM will use to select and classify evidence.
Its not just what the IOM SOW and contract specify for criteria. The IOM SOW specifies that the IOM study will coordinate closely "with the Office of Disease Prevention at NIH regarding their ongoing Evidence-based Methodology Workshop for ME/CFS in an effort to minimize overlap and maximize synergy. The coordination with NIH should assure that relevant information is shared and that key messages are coordinated. In addition to the SOW, that will set the scope of the evidence to be used.
 
@medfeb Yet that will be specified in the contract, and determined by rules of the IOM. The contract is secret, the SOW is a watered-down overly-broad and almost useless document.

So far we have not focused on the NIH workshop. We will have to see what comes out of this. For example, if somehow the use of 2 day CPET becomes mandatory, then things will improve. However given the CDC stand on this, its like the game is fixed before it even begins. Does anyone have information on the precise scope of that workshop? How much will it be reviewing methodology? If it specified methodology, then that is what the IOM may well use, and we have a stronger idea of where things can go wrong.
 
Does anyone have information on the precise scope of that workshop?
We have this post by Jennie Spotila:
And the Assistant Secretary responded in writing on May 1, 2013:

The National Institutes of Health (NIH) is convening an Evidence-based Methodology Workshop process . . . to address the issue of case definitions appropriate for ME/CFS research. However, it will not cover in detail a clinical case definition. The Office of the Assistant Secretary for Health, Department of Health and Human Services, is actively pursuing options for a separate effort that would work in coordination with the NIH process, but result in a case definition useful for clinicians who see patients with symptoms that may be ME/CFS. . . . .

The EbMW consists of a thorough, unbiased evidence review of the literature related to clinical research outcomes compared across case definitions and culminating in a workshop composed of experts and patients. The workshop participants and panel members will use the evidence review to evaluate the strength of evidence for case definitions with the goal of identifying the most consistent outcomes. . . . The first organizational meeting for the EbMW on ME/CFS was held on February 19,2013. A timeline for the process is being developed.​

The wording of the response is very important: the EbMW will address the issue of case definitions appropriate for ME/CFS research. That does not say they will identify the correct or new research definition – just that the issue of appropriate research definitions will be addressed.

These two paragraphs from Assistant Secretary Koh’s response translate as follows: 1) No, we will not have a stakeholders’ workshop as you recommended in October 2012. 2) We will have an EbMW to address definition issues related to research. 3) We are “actively pursuing options for a separate effort” on a clinical case definition.

Understandably, several CFSAC members were upset that the answer was No-but-we’ll-do-something-else. This is what led to the fireworks at the end of Day 2. Several members reacted strongly to Dr. Susan Maier’s report that the unidentified people who attended the meeting on February 9th submitted a list of 35 to 40 potential candidates for the EbMW’s organizational committee to the Office of Disease Prevention for vetting and selection. Dr. Maier could not identify that list of candidates, although she did say that there were CFSAC members and advocates on the list. We have no timeline for publication of this list, either. Dr. Fletcher was particularly vocal about the secrecy and long timeline

I have to say that I am not surprised that the answer was “no, but . . . ” and I’m not knocking the EbMW. Dr. Beth Collins-Sharp from the Agency for Healthcare Research and Quality gave a detailed explanation of the methodology used for evidence reviews, and it is quite robust (and includes a patient viewpoint). I suspect that this is the same kind of evidence review that was requested by the CFSAC years ago in order to have a State of the Science Workshop, and which was never completed. The State of the Knowledge meeting in April 2011 was basically a State of the Science-Light kind of meeting. AHRQ’s last review on CFS was completed in 2002, so it is certainly time for an update.

The problem here is that we don’t have enough information to judge the EbMW process, since we don’t know who is on the organizing committee. We can’t judge the case definition process, since we have absolutely NO information about it whatsoever....


 
Alex
About the Evidence Based methodology workshop - you asked - "How much will it be reviewing methodology?"

Can you clarify what you mean by that?
Mary

Its called a methodology workshop, but there is huge scope within that brief to work it in different ways. It depends, as always, on the fine print. Its like all we see is the big bold lettering on a 100 page contract, which takes only one page, and all the details are hidden. Those details may be important.

Using or discussing evidence-based methodology could easily just become "how do we rubber stamp this process with an evidence-based stamp" rather than "how valid is this approach, how can it be modified, what do we need to do to modify the evidence-based approach to make it work for ME or CFS?"

In particular I am concerned that subjective and probably biased research from the CBT/GET crowd, often based on unproven experimental diagnostics, will be given more weight than objective scientific data from biomedical researchers because of:

a/ Non replication. (There is often no money or desire to replicate these studies.)
b/ Small studies. (Psychogenic research often gets much more money for these things.)
c/ The "experts" unfamiliarity with the biomedical research on ME or even CFS.
d/ Improper acceptance that psychogenic medicine can be evidence based, whereas their hypothesis rest on diagnostic criteria that have no evidence-based validation aside from weak and potentially biased subjective measures. There is a reason I use the term psychobabble, just as many rationalists have going right back to Karl Popper (though in Popper's time it was called nonscience or pseudoscience, and I use both those terms too).
e/ Improper use of conclusions in studies rather than getting into the science ... if the science is accepted but the methodology is not questioned, then psychogenic studies will sail right through.
 
Folks I don't want to sound a down note, but given the unbelievable pressure on Sibelius and Co right now regarding the healthcare website failure, I'm not sure whether any of their staff will have attention for the IOM issue.

The timing couldn't be worse. Everyone in the entire HHS dept must be being hammered by all directions to fix that website, hair on fire kind of panic in the bureaucracy. IOM stuff? Not a priority. Not to say folks should stop advocating, but I'm just feeling a bit concerned that this other issue is a serious distraction from IOM.

There will always be a crisis of some sort that is considered more important then us.
Yes, this is an especially trying time for HHS.
But any little thing will be of greater concern at any time b/c We are nothing to them now.
We have to push forward.

Thanks always to those who are able to do morre for those who are too sick.
 
The timing couldn't be worse. Everyone in the entire HHS dept must be being hammered by all directions to fix that website, hair on fire kind of panic in the bureaucracy. IOM stuff? Not a priority. Not to say folks should stop advocating, but I'm just feeling a bit concerned that this other issue is a serious distraction from IOM.
It might make it a bad time to get their attention, but it makes a great time to point out how badly they're screwing things up. "In addition to the website issues, look at the crap they did to veterans with GWI, and are now trying to do to ME/CFS patients!"
 
Folks I don't want to sound a down note, but given the unbelievable pressure on Sibelius and Co right now regarding the healthcare website failure, I'm not sure whether any of their staff will have attention for the IOM issue.

The timing couldn't be worse. Everyone in the entire HHS dept must be being hammered by all directions to fix that website, hair on fire kind of panic in the bureaucracy. IOM stuff? Not a priority. Not to say folks should stop advocating, but I'm just feeling a bit concerned that this other issue is a serious distraction from IOM.
This is good. It will give us more time to organize.
 
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