The missing link

W

Wishful

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learning said:
If I remember correctly 5-htp is a precursor of TRP
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Nope, the opposite. Part of TRP in the brain is converted to 5-HTP through 5-hydroxytryptophan to serotonin. Since I didn't notice an effect from supplemental 5-HTP (except for countering insomnia) or from SSRIs, I assume that pathway is working okay and gets adequate TRP. Most (90%) TRP in the brain gets converted into kynurenines. Kynurenic acid is neuroprotective. Some of the others are neurotoxic.

I just came across this paper about quinolinic acid: www.hindawi.com/journals/omcl/2013/104024/ I'm too brainfogged today to make full sense of it, but it's full of findings that seem to relate to ME/CFS. "QUIN can potentiate its own toxicity and that of other excitotoxins, like NMDA and glutamate, producing progressive mitochondrial dysfunction" "Recently, Schuck and coworkers [54] have shown that QUIN inhibits the 14CO2 production and increased glucose uptake in cerebral cortex homogenates of young rats indicating that this kynurenine stimulated the transport and/or utilization of this substrate by the brain. QUIN also inhibits around 35% succinate dehydrogenase (SDH), an enzyme involved in the citric acid cycle and in the respiratory chain."

Those who have their own theories about ME/CFS would likely find supporting evidence in this paper. Not that this is proof of anything, but QUIN (and other kynurenines) certainly seem like they could play a role in ME/CFS. Lots of possibilities for feedback loops to get locked into. There probably isn't much ME/CFS research into kynurenines, since it requires CSF samples rather than blood, which makes it more difficult/expensive. I still think ME/CFS is primarily a cerebral disorder, and that the common physical effects are secondary effects which are leading researchers down the wrong path.

"On the other hand, the administration of a TRP-free diet to rats for 15 days resulted in a doubling of QUIN concentrations in the cortex." Dang! Maybe that's why my attempt at a TRP-free diet didn't reduce my symptom severity.

I also came across: www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9597672 which concluded that: 'Selegiline has a small but significant therapeutic effect in CFS which appears independent of an antidepressant effect.' in case anyone here is desperate for even a small theraputic effect.
 
learning

learning

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56
lnester7 said:
https://www.healthrising.org/blog/2015/10/12/lactic-acidosis-causing-cfs-fm-symptoms/
I still need to find the blog
But here is some I still use= prescript assist, Dr Mercola complete probiotic, Solary super mitlidophilus ( review this one not sure if it was part of the list but found the bottle, might be an old one)
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Thank you for the link. very informative read. It solidifies my theory that cfs is indeed caused by a build up of lactic acid at least for some people. Unfortunately I could not find the list of lactic acid utilizing bacteria that you referred to. If you could post it here it would be greatly appreciated. I have looked into the probiotic supplements that you posted. Prescript assist changed their formula some time around 2017. The first formula worked great and was loved by many. Their new formula... not so much. It made most people feel unwell. Dr Mercola complete probiotic contains 100% lactic acid producing bacteria. Kind of the opposite probiotic that I am looking for. I'm not sure how it helps you but I have been down that road too many times already. Solary super mitlidophilus contains a lot of different strains. I will have to research them individually... if you have time please see if you can locate that list.
 
W

Wishful

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learning said:
It solidifies my theory that cfs is indeed caused by a build up of lactic acid at least for some people.
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I think it's unlikely to be a cause of the disorder, but certainly can be a cause of some symptoms, and excess lactic acid could be the result of ME/CFS for some people. Dysbiosis could trigger ME/CFS in some people, by triggering the immune system the same way that viral or bacterial infections do.
 
Seven7

Seven7

Seven
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learning

learning

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Wishful said:
I think it's unlikely to be a cause of the disorder, but certainly can be a cause of some symptoms, and excess lactic acid could be the result of ME/CFS for some people. Dysbiosis could trigger ME/CFS in some people, by triggering the immune system the same way that viral or bacterial infections do.
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The truth is that there are probably many reasons that cause fatigue. I can think of at least 5 off the top of my head: 1. malabsorption of nutrients. 2. lack of sleep/insomnia. 3. body not producing enzymes. 4. hormonal imbalances. 5. glucose not getting converted into atp? ... etc. I think a lot of people are diagnosed with CFS when their doctors cant find the root cause of their symptoms. Lactic acid producing bacterial overgrowth is not the cause of everyone's CFS. I'm 99% sure that it is the cause of mine. I would like to create a list of bacteria strains that use lactic acid as there food source and see if they help my symptoms improve. If anyone can help by posting some strains of bacteria that they think utilize lactate, please post.
 
learning

learning

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lnester7 said:
Finally found the lady I was thinking about. She has a list to the bottom
https://www.prohealth.com/library/did-probiotics-cure-my-chronic-fatigue-syndrome-39649
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I see the list. Thank you for finding it. Those are probiotic formulas. I'm looking for a list of individual strains of bacteria, what there prebiotic food is and what they convert it to.
for example:
Lactobacilli
Lactobacillus acidophilus, prebiotic: glucose, produces: lactic acid

Lactobacillus brevis, prebiotic: glucose, produces: lactic acid

L. bulgaricus, prebiotic: glucose, produces: lactic acid.

L. plantarum, prebiotic: nitrate, produces: lactolin.

L. rhamnosus, glucose, produces: lactic acid.

Bifidobacteria
Bifidobacterium bifidum, prebiotic: glucose, produces: lactic acid and acetic acid.

B. infantis... etc, etc, etc...

I need the list to be comprised of Lactic acid utilizing bacteria, not lactic acid producing bacteria like the ones in this example list.
 
S

S-VV

Senior Member
Messages
310
Yesterday I took digestive eznymes, not realizing they also had D-Lactate producing probiotics. Within half an hour, fibromialgic pain started appearing through my body and ~2 hrs. later I got some strange "stomach flares" that were accompanied by the worsening of symptoms.

The lactate link is pretty clear for me
 
S

S-VV

Senior Member
Messages
310
learning said:
Thank you for posting your findings. I guess the real question is "why would anyone sell a supplement containing d-lactic acid producing bacteria"?
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Profit and bogus marketing most likely. It's common to hear things like "acidophilus suoercharges your inmunnity by obliterating pathogens with it's strong acid. Buy bulletproofdoophilus now"
 
snowman

snowman

Messages
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@learning , this thread made me think of a few things for which I am not up to looking up references and may not remember correctly off the top of my head. I think I recall high dose thiamine may help with producing more ATP and less lactic acid. (High dose biotin may also help some in this regard.) Also, eating sugar or high starch diet could use up available thiamine pretty quickly, particularly if there is a disease or metabolic problem concerning thiamine (transketolase or TPP prob - there's a thread on this) or low thiamine status. Very high doses were used in a small fibromyalgia study, somewhere around 1500-2000mg/day of B1 Hydrochloride? I think that reduced pain and possibly brain fog as well. Some people have problem with long term high dose B1, throwing off balance of other B's and such from biochem processes being revved up or closer to normal and needing additional cofactors.

For SIBO or bacterial imbalance, you might look into Lactobacillus Sporogenes AKA Bacillus Coagulans. I recall something about it getting rid of other bacteria and microbes by competition, then a week later the L. Sporogenes is excreted, so something of a reset. Supposed to work even better if take it with ground fenugreek, as a component of fenugreek is it's preferred food source. If enterovirus in GI tract is suspected, a very alternative thing to look into is low dose EDTA and peroxide in drinking water. Lugol's Iodine drops in water (if tolerated) can quickly kill back SIBO, and about everything else if high enough dose.
 
learning

learning

Messages
56
snowman said:
@learning , this thread made me think of a few things for which I am not up to looking up references and may not remember correctly off the top of my head. I think I recall high dose thiamine may help with producing more ATP and less lactic acid. (High dose biotin may also help some in this regard.) Also, eating sugar or high starch diet could use up available thiamine pretty quickly, particularly if there is a disease or metabolic problem concerning thiamine (transketolase or TPP prob - there's a thread on this) or low thiamine status. Very high doses were used in a small fibromyalgia study, somewhere around 1500-2000mg/day of B1 Hydrochloride? I think that reduced pain and possibly brain fog as well. Some people have problem with long term high dose B1, throwing off balance of other B's and such from biochem processes being revved up or closer to normal and needing additional cofactors.

For SIBO or bacterial imbalance, you might look into Lactobacillus Sporogenes AKA Bacillus Coagulans. I recall something about it getting rid of other bacteria and microbes by competition, then a week later the L. Sporogenes is excreted, so something of a reset. Supposed to work even better if take it with ground fenugreek, as a component of fenugreek is it's preferred food source. If enterovirus in GI tract is suspected, a very alternative thing to look into is low dose EDTA and peroxide in drinking water. Lugol's Iodine drops in water (if tolerated) can quickly kill back SIBO, and about everything else if high enough dose.
Click to expand...

Some good things to think about here. Thanks for sharing. I actually have been exparamexperi with b1 with some positive results. I'm starting to realize that there are a few ways that lactic acid can build up in the system. Lactic acid producing bacteria, b1 deficiency, calcification of the mitochondria.
When more than one are happening at the same time, it's a recipe for disaster.
 
A

aquariusgirl

Senior Member
Messages
1,736
learning said:
Some good things to think about here. Thanks for sharing. I actually have been exparamexperi with b1 with some positive results. I'm starting to realize that there are a few ways that lactic acid can build up in the system. Lactic acid producing bacteria, b1 deficiency, calcification of the mitochondria.
When more than one are happening at the same time, it's a recipe for disaster.
Click to expand...

bookmarking this.....seem to have major lactic acid problems. Haven't found any docs who have a clue about it though.
 
godlovesatrier

godlovesatrier

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@Seven7 posted a link above to Carol's story about curing her cfs via probiotics. She took over 50 strains and over 250 billion cfu's per day to recover. When she stopped symptoms came back, when she went back on them they all abated again.

It's hard to know how she's doing these days, although would be fantastic to know, Cort might have contact details for her I guess, but here's another link anyway which is probably identical to the prohealth one but just in case that one goes missing:

https://www.healthrising.org/blog/2016/01/07/probiotics-cure-my-chronic-fatigue-syndrome/
 
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