The GURU is INSIDE YOU

[Dreambirdie]

This thread reminded me of a time I was at a Zen center, hearing about how zen really isn't incompatible with other religions (meaning christianity, I guess, trying not to scare off the christians, lol). When it came time to bow to the "roshi," I couldn't do it, because it violated my beliefs mentioned above, so I just stood there while everyone bowed (gassho). I then heard all the well-meaning "teachings" (indoctrination) about how I shouldn't be too egotistical or proud to bow, that it didn't really mean anything, that it was just a gesture of "respect," etc. (but no respect for my beliefs, apparently ) They were so offended at my continued refusal - I might be the only person in the history of the place to get harsh, glaring looks from the zen master, lol - who has the ego now??

(For the record, I don't want anyone bowing to me, either. )

Great movie, though, thanks for mentioning it. : -)

Your story reminds me of one I heard Ralph Nader tell about how he (as a child) refused to kiss a cardinal's ring. He stood his ground and said NO. I like stories like that.

It also reminds me of when Robert Bly, at the very first poetry reading I ever attended as a college student in Boulder, called Trungpa's Buddhists out on the now infamous "Merwin incident." You can google it to get the whole story, but basically it had to do with Trungpa's monkey men assaulting the poet Merwin and his wife at one of Trungpa's Buddhist retreats, dragging them from their room, stripping their clothes off and forcing them to participate in one of their naked dance orgies. This kind of crap was going on a lot at this time, in the mid-late 70s in Boulder. And everyone that I knew in that Buddhist community excused it.

I was so impressed with Robert Bly for not pretending that this kind of abusive behavior was okay, for daring to confront the Buddhists about it. It was AWESOME! The Buddhists in the audience at that reading were standing up and yelling back at him, things like "You don't understand crazy wisdom!" and "You are not a master!" as they stomped out the door. And Bly would not relent. He kept yelling back at them, until they all left. Then he proceeded with the rest of his poetry reading.

I had never seen anyone take such a strong stand to publicly call out an abusive authority. It was profound for me to witness this as a 19 year old. I went to many of Robert Bly's poetry readings after this, and even had an opportunity to recite a poem with him at one of them.

About 8 years ago, I spoke with Robert after one of the readings he did here in town. I asked him about that incident back in Boulder in the 70s, and told him how impressed I was at how brave he had been to confront Trungpa's Buddhists. He looked straight at me and said, "I was scared to death. There were people in that room that wanted to hurt me." He was so honest, it made it all the more significant at how much courage it had taken to be that brave.

 

[Nielk]

When it came time to bow to the "roshi," I couldn't do it, because it violated my beliefs mentioned above, so I just stood there while everyone bowed (gassho).

I'm proud of you Jeffrez! Just like Mordechai Hayehudi.

 

[Dreambirdie]

Glinda the good witch was right after all.

 

[ahimsa]

I think given the right circumstances, the right pressure anyone can fall.

Wise words, rosie26! I've read several books over the years about how we can be influenced by our surroundings (not just by people but even by what objects are in the room) either consciously or subconsciously.

A recent book that talks about the many different ways that we are deluded/deceived is called You Are Not So Smart (http://www.powells.com/biblio/2-9781592406593-1 ) . It's an interesting read.

 

[rosie26]

You really have to have your wits about you all the time.

I'll never forget something that happened to me about 30 years ago. I was in my late teens. I had just arrived home and there was a knock at the door. I opened the door and a man was standing there and he said to me "I am looking for models to model jeans, would you be interested." ( he must have seen me arriving home).
Well, I was very flattered that he thought I was good enough to model ha ha. At the time I was carrying a little extra weight and I said "I think I really need to lose a little weight before doing any modeling". He said "I'll show you the right exercises to do" !
I foolishly let this complete stranger into the house and in about 5 minutes he had me on the floor and before I knew it he was on the floor and rudely bending over me !!! I quickly realized this was getting too weird and told him to leave.

The next day I heard on the news that there was a man knocking on doors and being very inappropriate.
There are some very convincing people out there and it didn't help that he was quite good-looking as well !! Crazy.

 

[rosie26]

ahimsa

Thanks ahimsa, I have written the name of the book down and will have a look at it. Sounds a good read

 

[PNR2008]

Rosie, You were very lucky or someone good spiritually was teaching you a very valuable lesson. Your experience gave me shivers.

 

[Nielk]

Glinda the good witch was right after all.

View attachment 5252

Yes, but where do I get those shoes?

 

[PhoenixDown]

I watched the trial and was amazed to see a nurse and an orthodontist who took the stand as witnesses. Obviously they KNEW, (they were educated health professionals!) that people were getting ill from the heat in the sweat lodge, and that this could be dangerous. But they (and everyone else in that lodge) were too intimidated by this New Age guru to speak up and say "WE NEED TO GET OUT OF HERE!"

What is it that makes people SURRENDER and OBEY someone like this?

I think part of it is that they have so much hope invested in a belief system, they don't want to contradict it in case their health doesn't improve or their goals aren't reached. They have been made to feel they will be punished (perhaps by their own bodies) if they don't believe with all their heart, give the impression that the belief system works, and say that they are doing well even if they are not. Like a superstition that's feeding into some people's OCD.

 

[Beyond]

Slightly off-topic but a couple months ago I read the book "The Power of Now" I am quite New Agish and very into conspiracy/alternative stuff, specially into what proves to be REAL. Well, while reading the book I felt like another person, like in the path of emotional/spiritual healing. It was like this book was the PEAK of my very extensive efforts to "think positively" and "change" I was desperate and the book made me go into a calm, pleasant trance. At that tme, my sister, which also has insomnia and mental problems, told me she would NOT read that kind of book again. I didnt understand her then but now a lot better. Time passed and I fell again, and very deep. Now I say, if a book or guru or lifestyle makes you feel better thats healthy and cool, but if it is not a long-lasting effect, something that permeates to the core of your problems and heal them, then look elsewhere. I have had this lows and high with quite a few spiritual groups, mentalities and therapies for now. But I am better than what I was. You can and you actually do get bits of truth and healing with every experience.

Just a week ago I found in Siddharta of Hesse a summary for this experience of mine. The guy realises that illumination its a personal phenomena that cannot be taught. Even if the writer of The Power of Now actually got illuminated as he says in his book, this experience cannot be taught. But reading these books help, I guess.

 

[Dreambirdie]

Beyond I'm glad you mentioned Eckhart Tolle's book The Power Of Now. I also got some good things out of it, when I first read it back in the late 90s. It was helpful in reminding me to be more aware of my thought processes and how those can sometimes amplify my symptoms, and how staying present in the "NOW" can help to alleviate some of my health related anticipatory anxieties. I think Tolle was on the right track with that first book. It was simple and straightforward in its message.

But then he started cranking out one book after the next, and eventually he had an appearance and a tele-class on Oprah, where he and Oprah discussed his latest book at the time--A New Earth, the theme of which had a lot to do with changing the consciousness of humanity on a collective level... as if a book could do that. Here's the blurb about it:
"Building on the astonishing success of The Power of Now, Eckhart Tolle presents readers with an honest look at the current state of humanity: He implores us to see and accept that this state, which is based on an erroneous identification with the egoic mind, is one of dangerous insanity."

Shortly after the Oprah appearance, I saw that Tolle had created a website, called eckharttolletv, where he charges people $99.95/6 months for his streaming video spiritual teachings. https://www.eckharttolletv.com/join/ It made me laugh out loud, that someone who "implores us to see and accept" the state of humanity and its "erroneous identification with the egoic mind" has become such a self-indulgent participant in the very same "dangerous insanity" that he's teaching us to be so aware of. So if you can't do... teach, right? The power of the NOW has descended rapidly into the power of the cash cow. Mooo!

 

[Beyond]

Wtf you are shocking me dreambirdie. Its a hard game down here in Earth, most are fakers! This place its built upon lies. Such a dissapointment... Thats why his book didnt last inside me, I guess.

 

[Nielk]

I often wonder how we each would have turned out had we been brought up in complete isolation of another human being. (fantasy land, of course) We are influenced by everything we see, hear, experience from the minute we have been born. When I look at myself, I know that I am an aggregate of all my experiences so far. I have been influenced by the people closest to me, by my community and culture. This is obvious but, there are so many subtle ways that we are influenced that we don't realize at all. Did I read somewhere or just imagined that in TV ads, there are sublimal messages that are hidden in there to influence our minds? The smells and sounds all around us have an impact on our thinking. It's hard to control something that you don't even know is happening.

Had I had no influence of others in my life. No influence of culture, religion, community, books on philosophy, psychology and history, who would I be? left to my own instincts, as Dreambirdie states, what would my own "untouched" instincts be?

 

[Dreambirdie]

I often wonder how we each would have turned out had we been brought up in complete isolation of another human being. (fantasy land, of course) We are influenced by everything we see, hear, experience from the minute we have been born. When I look at myself, I know that I am an aggregate of all my experiences so far. I have been influenced by the people closest to me, by my community and culture. This is obvious but, there are so many subtle ways that we are influenced that we don't realize at all. Did I read somewhere or just imagined that in TV ads, there are sublimal messages that are hidden in there to influence our minds? The smells and sounds all around us have an impact on our thinking. It's hard to control something that you don't even know is happening.

Had I had no influence of others in my life. No influence of culture, religion, community, books on philosophy, psychology and history, who would I be? left to my own instincts, as Dreambirdie states, what would my own "untouched" instincts be?

Well fortunately, or unfortunately, (depending on your experiences in this life with people), we don't have the option of hatching out of an egg and crawling off to be completely on our own, beginning with our birth onward. Though sometimes it seems like many of us would have been better off if we had had that option.

So really, the only way to know what is truly your own intuition, separate from your cultural and familial programming is to carefully investigate your own self over time and find out. Some people call this "inner work," but I think of it mostly as an ongoing reality check with myself. I find that MOST of the time I can tell the difference between what I feel is right for me vs what I think I "should" do. It's that "should" that usually gives off the odor (speaking of smells) of someone else's influence on my life. Maybe that's why noses are associated (in metaphorical language) with intuition. It's like smelling "a rat" or something smells "rotten in Denmark." That's one's nose, one's intuition talking.

 

[golden]

The Matrix is an interesting film.

It has parallels of what some Gurus describe as a reality beyond comprehension.

U.D. Krishnamurti
For example:
"
In 1967 he entered the natural state , or what he was pleased to call 'the calamity ' . When asked to sum up his teachings in one sentence , his reply was ' The phrase is - I cannot help you ' .

He is uncompromising in his message that all ideas about enlightenment, meditation, self , or god -realization are nothing more than sweet dreams . Reality , he insists , is a very different affair and most of us, living in our dreams , wouldn't touch it with a barge pole .

He simply states that no communication is possible between someone in their natural state and someone dreaming , and anyway , he insists , none is necessary ."

Quoted from Lucid Dreaming, Malcolm Godwin

 

[Dreambirdie]

U.D. Krishnamurti

"In 1967 he entered the natural state , or what he was pleased to call 'the calamity ' .
When asked to sum up his teachings in one sentence , his reply was ' The phrase is - I cannot help you ' .

I love this so much I bolded it.

I read Krishnamurti a long time ago and was impressed with some of his writing. He was like the anti-guru.

 

[Dreambirdie]

I took the TM course in high school. At that point, my introduction to meditation + my mantra cost me only $75. I am shocked that the price for the TM beginner course has now risen to $2500. I can assure you, it is ABSOLUTELY not worth that much money.

Apparently the TM organization is marinated in cash. Doesn't THAT sound all too familiar.

"TM’s famous guru, the Maharishi Mahesh Yogi, known as the “giggling guru,” was an Indian yogi who rose to notoriety as the spiritual counselor to the Beatles. The giggling guru had plenty to smile about, as he got people to pay millions for his lessons on transcendence. According to Encyclopedia Britannica, his organization, which boasts real estate holdings, schools and clinics, was worthmore than $3 billion by the late 1990s. Teaching meditation was never enough for the Maharishi, or “His Holiness,” as followers called him. A marketing wiz, he launched the official TM-Sidhi program in the late 1970s that offered devotees the ability to levitate and bring about world peace. The levitation, or “yogic flying,” as followers call it, basically involves sitting on your duff in lotus position and bouncing up and down in what is possibly the most ridiculous-looking New Age practice on Earth -- and that’s saying something. This is thought to bring global consciousness. You really have to see it to believe it, so be sure to click here.

The Maharishi’s enthusiasm for the butt-flying technique actually led to the formation of a political party in 1992, the Natural Law Party, which runs campaigns in several countries, including the U.S. It must be admitted that most politicians speak out of their rear ends, so why not just make that part of the anatomy central to an entire platform? Makes sense to me...

As a concession to recessionary times, the TM movement dropped the price of its introductory course to $1,500 in 2008. That’s still an absurd amount of money for teaching a technique that could be learned in a hour. Any organization or movement that demands so much up-front cash from followers (still more if they choose advanced courses) and proffers such BS as global peace through butt-flying is bound to have a cultic dimension. I didn’t stick around long enough to explore it myself, but there are plenty of accounts of those who go beyond the initial meditation technique and find themselves feeling ripped off, angry and spiritually abused."

As for TM's secret mantras, they are all listed here: http://caic.org.au/eastern/sydda/free-tm.htm


http://www.alternet.org/economy/transcendental-meditation-how-i-paid-2500-password-inner-peace

 

[john66]

Great thread. I think this a valid issue in many areas of my life, since I have been sick. I have looked at doctors as guru's and went against my intuition and wound up much worse, and out lots of cash.. Rinse and repeat for chiropracters, naturopaths, homeopaths healers, etc. Some were sincere (I think) and some were outright con artists.

The pattern I see in myself is that I give up power in desperation of a miracle cure or a quick fix.

I think all of us, as a matter of learning, healing and growth, go down paths that are helpful and some that are not as helpful. I read Power vs Force, by David Hawkins and I am That by Sri Nisgardotta, they both helped me in this area.

Regarding what happened in Arizona-what a tragedy. I think there is an appeal for very successful people to "get to the next level" , push harder etc. Maybe its a lonely at the top phenomenon or escape. When I was healthy, I would take risks, some that were stupid-just for the dopamine rush-like big wave surfing.

 

[Dreambirdie]

Great thread. I think this a valid issue in many areas of my life, since I have been sick. I have looked at doctors as guru's and went against my intuition and wound up much worse, and out lots of cash.. Rinse and repeat for chiropracters, naturopaths, homeopaths healers, etc. Some were sincere (I think) and some were outright con artists.

The pattern I see in myself is that I give up power in desperation of a miracle cure or a quick fix.

john66 I hear you regarding the doctors and ALL the other practitioners. Mostly a disappointment for me too. Desperation has led me down the path of disaster quite a few times, when it comes to my health. But at least I am learning to be wiser and more discerning, now that I know how few things are really helpful for me.

 

[Dreambirdie]

This is VERY FUNNY and smart. Having been raised Catholic, and having followed a somewhat similar trajectory in my spiritual adventures, (though I think mine were mostly weirder), I laughed out loud many times. Unlike Sweeney, though, I don't consider myself an atheist.... but I do understand how she got there.